caesg
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Post by caesg on May 1, 2019 12:50:35 GMT -5
For the purposes of this thread, I will only be seeking information on traditional containers, i.e. "anything that's mostly solid and drains through the bottom", not including SIPs, not including raised beds that are set directly on the ground with open bottoms (thereby allowing water and roots to directly penetrate the ground.) My sense is that there are differences in maintaining "small containers" (for example, half whiskey barrels, hanging pots, that Tonka truck that got turned into a planter), vs maintaining "extra large containers" (for example these two orchard crates I've got which measure 4'x4'x2'). I'm under the impression that extra large containers are maintained in a manner that is somewhat more similar to an in ground garden except... not... I know that one of the podcasts that I listen to, when they did an episode on container gardening, they specified that they were going to speak specifically about "any vessel that you grow in that is smaller than a 4'x4'x1' raised bed" . Which... makes me think there was a reason for that distinction. The only differences I can think of at the moment are that I would have a beast of a time sterilizing the soil from the orchard boxes every year. So... maybe that's not necessary? And, maybe with that much soil there are ways to manage the soil that allow it to create a bit of it's own ecosystem due to having so much volume and mass in one place? The larger the container the slower it will dry out... but that's still more true for the center of the container than the edges. Hrmm... I am planning to fill the containers with perlite, compost, and coir/peat. How long is perlite typically functional before it breaks up and needs to be refreshed?
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Post by Laura_in_FL on May 1, 2019 13:20:31 GMT -5
This will be an interesting read for me since I have never used any container that would meet your "extra-large container" definition (4'x4'x1' or larger).
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Post by paulf on May 1, 2019 16:55:26 GMT -5
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Post by paquebot on May 1, 2019 21:53:12 GMT -5
The mix of perlite, compost, and peat are a great one for one season. The compost is the only source of nutrients and will be good for one season. After that, not much left the second year and none the third. if the container can't be dumped and started over, then you have to use Paul's system of replacing nutrients with fertilizer.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by september on May 1, 2019 21:59:47 GMT -5
paulf , I want those turtles!
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Post by paulf on May 1, 2019 22:04:03 GMT -5
They would be VEEERRRY expensive. At the local county fair a chain saw artist carved them and I had to outbid a lot of other people just because my wife likes turtles (up to about 20 right now). These are her favorites, too.
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Post by september on May 1, 2019 22:09:34 GMT -5
paulf , turtles are my thing too! All my life, and at one time I was going to be a herpetologist. I've been wanting to sculpt a big life size cement Galapagos tortoise family in our yard. My husband is grateful it hasn't happened yet.
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Post by brownrexx on May 2, 2019 7:39:27 GMT -5
september, paulf, I think that a Box turtle saved us from a serious accident several years ago. We were headed down the mountain from our cabin on our way home when we saw a box turtle crossing the road. We pulled over to get it off of the road so that it wouldn't get killed. We spent maybe 10 minutes picking up the turtle and then watching it walk into the grassy edge of the woods. As we continued down the mountain and got to the intersection with the main road we discovered a big multi car accident which was so recent that people were still getting out of their cars. We think that we would have been right there if we had not stopped to help a turtle.
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caesg
Pro Member
Posts: 152
Zone:: 5b
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Post by caesg on May 5, 2019 14:53:47 GMT -5
Oh, wow! I need to learn how to follow threads. I think there's probably a box for me to check, somewhere. Without anyone tagging me, I thought there hadn't been any activity on this thread and didn't see all these messages until today as I ambled over to give an update!
Okay. Before I update, I'm going to try and figure out how to follow individual threads so I get notifications when there's activity. `scurries off`
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caesg
Pro Member
Posts: 152
Zone:: 5b
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Joined: April 2018
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Post by caesg on May 5, 2019 15:34:53 GMT -5
Laura_in_FL, Huzzah for learning neat things together! paulf, Ooooh. Those are really neat. Were those cattle/horse troughs that you just had laying around? Or what's their story? The orchard boxes are built to be moved around by forlkift. So, they have built in "lifts" to keep them off the ground and draining freely, which is pretty cool. What system are you using for watering your extra large containers? Laying the window screen along the bottom is a good idea. I'm not terribly concerned about soil dropping through, but it wouldn't hurt. Also, it could be good to keep critters from crawling up through the gaps and making themselves at home in the empty gaps I'll be creating underneath the soil layer. A metal mesh small enough to exclude mice might be advisable. I know the house previously had a problem with mice, and rats are common. Are there any particular plants that you've had the most or least success with in your extra large planters. No need to address the half dozen questions I just peppered you with. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your experiences and photos! And, like the others, the giant tortoises made a great impression on me, too. :-) Thanks for the smile, there. (And tell your wife, I say, "Thanks for the smile!" since she was the reason they came to join the yard and garden. :-) ) Also, you mention "up to 20 right now." Does your wife have 20 pet turtles? Or do you have 20 chainsaw turtles? Or 20 various sized and material-type figurine turtles? paquebot Thanks, Martin, for the reply and info. I don't know that container gardening is ever going to be as easy, economical, or as ecologically sound as in-ground gardening. Have you come across any ideas for soil mixes or practices that are able to maintain healthier soils? That's part of what I was thinking might be a difference between a regular size container vs an extra large container. That there might be (once I filled them all the way, not this year where I'll only be filling in 1' deep) a way to actually nourish a healthy soil culture of some sort. september Go go massive galapagos tortoise lawn ornament GO! :-D brownrexx Wowza. That's quite a story.
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Post by brownrexx on May 5, 2019 15:44:17 GMT -5
caesg , I just look at "recent threads" from the blue bar at the top of the page which will show me every thread that is new since I last visited. Of course I visit every day so there are not usually tons of them. If you want to be notified about certain threads go to "profile" from the top blue bar and then "edit profile" and then "notifications" and you can check off whatever you want to be notified about
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caesg
Pro Member
Posts: 152
Zone:: 5b
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Joined: April 2018
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Post by caesg on May 5, 2019 16:01:22 GMT -5
Update:
+ The light is best in the front yard. But, there's also dirt that I can plant in there, underneath the gravel and landscaping fabric. The landscaping fabric isn't actually keeping weeds from growing up through the gravel. Weeding gravel is much less pleasant than weeding wood chips. Blech. I don't know that I'll actually plant anything in the ground this season. I may just lay down ~4" compost everywhere and then a wood chip path with the ideas of (1)much easier to weed and (2) it'll prepare the soil for next year. I got some large aluminum cans off the classifieds to store the gravel in so that I can lay it back down whenever we eventually move out.
+ Half of the back yard is taken up by an old asphalt coal-delivery lane. So, that's where I think I'm going to put the boxes, on the asphalt. The light isn't as good, but we were planning on mostly planting leafy greens. So, that should be fine. + It would take $200 to fill the volume of both boxes. So, I'm going to use "spacers" to fill the bottom ~1' of each box. I'll then lay ~1' of potting soil in Box 1, this year. And, I'll add ~1' of potting soil to each box each year until their both filled.
+ Box 1 Filler: My plan for this box is to fill with various free plastic... stuff. So, 5 gal buckets turned upside down, milk jugs, water bottles, bubble warp, etc etc. I'll then lay landscaping fabric over all of that. And potting soil goes on top of the landscape fabric.
+ Box 2 Filler 2019: This year, MrLoverMan has decided that he is going to put just straight up landscaping dirt (which we have on hand) in there and try to grow strawberries. He has zero interest in gardening beyond strawberries and... in my opinion, his strawberries in the past haven't tasted very good. He likes them though, and that's what matters. Also, it tickles him to tend them and to do it his way. He enjoys it, and that's what matters ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ He's not laying long term claim to the box. Just his plan since I won't be using the box, this year.
+ Box 2 Filler 2020: May be a bit overambitious. Thus, the 2020 timeline. So, I'd like to try out the second box as a hugelkultur container. Apparently there's a thing where you use dried out wood laid up on end/vertically to take up space in the bottom of the pot and then lay soil and plant on top of that. It's easy to get fresh cut wood for free. I imagine I can lay that out to dry... or something... and get more info on the concept in the mean time.
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Post by paulf on May 5, 2019 17:25:12 GMT -5
caesg: The lady of the house saw the cattle waterers on line used as raised bed garden. Since we are in farm country there are a few waterers around with holes rusted in the bottom. The farmers are glad to be rid of useless containers. They are perfect for us. We bought a smaller one called a sheep waterer on sale. Once in place these containers will not move so far as I am concerned.
Our turtles are of all sizes and materials and they encircle the goldfish pond as decoration. None are alive except with color.
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Post by paquebot on May 5, 2019 20:44:56 GMT -5
Don't like the part of a 1' "spacer" to avoid filling a 2' container. Not many vegetables would be happy with just a foot of medium. I'd suggest cheap topsoil for that lower foot and better material in the upper foot. Not many vegetables have root systems less than 4' under normal garden conditions. They will never be happy in just a foot.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by paquebot on May 6, 2019 18:16:38 GMT -5
Followup to my last reply. If you are bent on still going with the idea of spacer in #1, plant the strawberries in that one. Their roots are shallow and can even be planted in hanging baskets. Use the full-depth ones for anything els.
Good mixture would be 50% old horse manure to 50% garden soil. If the garden soil is mainly clay or silt, 10% sand should be added for better drainage and less compaction. I currently used 75% old horse manure to 25% soil. That's good for two seasons and is then wore out and dumped. The spent stuff then becomes the 25% next year. The loose and deep medium allows me to grow carrots which are perfectly straight and 15" long. Can't do that in a normal garden. In one instance, depth of pot was 15" and I could not understand why I could not pull some Rainbow carrots. They had grown to the bottom and some kept developing outside of the drain holes. Others had made a 90º turn. Pot had to be emptied in order to be harvested.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by brownrexx on May 7, 2019 8:11:09 GMT -5
Don't like the part of a 1' "spacer" to avoid filling a 2' container. Not many vegetables would be happy with just a foot of medium. I agree with this. When the roots penetrate down into the lower space with items used as fillers the roots will probably end up in air spaces and dry out and die.
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caesg
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Posts: 152
Zone:: 5b
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Post by caesg on Jun 2, 2019 13:13:08 GMT -5
It's been raining raining raining and so the boxes continue to set empty. I was hoping to sand them down and paint the outsides this weekend. Next steps will be to lay hardware cloth along the bottom to exclude rodents.
We've recently discovered that the holes along the foundation that we asked the exterminator about upon move in are rat burrows. We rent, and technically this is the landlord's responsibility, particularly since the burrows were present at move in. However, I'm hesitant to report. I've had two previous landlords decide to demolish and remodel when I've reported pests. I don't really want to deal with that and, I feel like if the landlord was particularly invested that they'd engage in more preventative maintenance, especially since the area where I live is known for rat infestations (there's a sewer line about 1/2 mile north.) The landlord's maintenance team confirmed previous trouble with mice on the property (I found droppings behind the oven at move in and the oven smelled absolutely atrocious for months until who knows what finally burned off) and there are holes that've been previously sealed with expanding foam visible from the exterior of the property. We haven't had any trouble with mice inside the house since move in. Also no rats inside the house, just outside and underneath. Anyhow, this is a long tangent to say "I'm going to rodent proof the boxes and some of my landscaping plans have been waylaid by utilize IPM techniques to convince the rats that the overgrown yard next door is far more hospitable than the property that I live on plans.
I'll continue with this thread over the coming weeks/months as I get to the stage of actually filling the boxes.
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caesg
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Zone:: 5b
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Post by caesg on Jul 12, 2019 10:46:46 GMT -5
I purchased vermiculite and peat moss, yesterday at the greenhouse supply.
Compost will be coming from the city and from a local goat farm. I know the city allows self-serve. Pretty sure the farm does, too. I'll have to double check on that.
No truck, I've got a Honda Fit. There's a hatchback, plus the seats all fold down. It's a proper transformer of a little car! Need to decide what I'll be doing to protect the upholstery for loading in the messy stuff.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 12, 2019 13:20:16 GMT -5
caesg,5-gallon pails will move mountains if they have enough time. When I had a '76 Ford LTD, always had a shovel and six 5-gallon pails in the trunk. Lots of sand, soil, or manure were brought home from as far away as 50 miles. Next was an '86 LTD but could only hold 5 pails. Then bought a Ranger and 18 5-gallon Homer pails. Now have an F-150 that can handle 24 pails. Point is, small or big, it all adds up. About the city compost, it may be high in carbon. Quite possibly there will be a lot of woody bits in it. As long as there is enough nitrogen to balance it, that is good stuff for containers. It will absorb moisture and retain it for the plants to use. Martin The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Gianna on Jul 12, 2019 18:30:39 GMT -5
For years Ive had either a hatch back and now small SUV. I use 15 gallon black nursery pots to carry everything. I looked and looked on Craig's list and finally found a bonanza of them for 50 cents each. But I had been willing to pay $1. Prior to that find, I collected them from yard sales, one at a time.... I used to be able to lift/move a full one, but as I age, that's getting a bit too much.
I now grow a lot in containers. I have a large concrete drive in front (which I used to hate) but have come to love having many pots on it. No gophers, no snakes, fewer snails.
I continually update/refresh the mix I use. When I don't, the plants don't do as well - or I have to add more fertilizer. A number of years ago I was able to get a lot of used potting mix from a local nursery. It was spent, and probably had had some sick plants in it. But it was free.
The only time I 'sterilize' (pasteurize) my mix is when there are simply too many weed seeds, or a plant with root knot nematodes had grown in it. I solarize the soil on that lovely concrete drive using sheets of clear plastic. I think there is a thread on that somewhere here. I havent solarized any this year.
When it's time to refresh the mix, I tip our any old containers on the concrete, add my compost, and anything else that hits my fancy and mix with a flat shovel. Rarely perlite since the original mix had it, and it does not break down fast - unless you step on it and crush it. This last time (yesterday) I added a lot of fresh coir. I like the fluff it gives, and it seems to help the containers absorb added water. I like having a small bit of soil in the mix - I think that helps with minerals. Less than 10%, and now most of my mixes have enough so its rare to add more. So basically this last batch was old mix, compost, and coir. And some all purpose fertilizer. (I am not an organic grower). There were also lots of earthworms in various components.
Most things are in plastic pots because they are light=weight, and easy to get. I do have a few large terra cota pots that are pretty but require special care - move with a dolly, and I'll always line the inner side walls with plastic sheeting or plastic pots that 'just fit' or they dry too fast. Right now in front I have two of these with lovely Zinnias.
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caesg
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Posts: 152
Zone:: 5b
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Post by caesg on Jul 12, 2019 18:41:45 GMT -5
paquebot . How do I pronounce your screen name? I keep swapping between multiple variations. Regarding the city compost, though: I don't know how well it will all hold up since the woman whose project it was has recently moved on to the corporate world. However, at the moment, our city compost is still regularly tested. They publicly post the results and it looks like our carbon ratio isn't too bad: There's a whole bunch of other info in there though that I probably would benefit from looking through. Hrm.
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caesg
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Posts: 152
Zone:: 5b
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Post by caesg on Jul 12, 2019 18:48:37 GMT -5
paquebot . It looks like we're running a little high on ash and M. High (moderately high?) on salinity. That being said, even with the salinity, it recommends "best to dilute 1:3 to 1:10 for most applications", which was the plan anyhow. I guess I'd considered bulking out the compost to save money. I'll know now not to do that with this compost. If I'm feeling ambitious, I can run an extension test on the goat compost. Also, while conducting a ctrl+f search for "high" throughout the document, I noticed this statement: "Considering all the factors above, your Compost is Very Mature: safe for use in containers" which is nice to know.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 12, 2019 21:23:36 GMT -5
Paquebot is French for ship mail derived from Packet Boat. In French, it would be "pak-bo". Most others pronounce it "pak-e-bo". "T" is always silent either way although some say "pak-bot". I would guess that maybe one person in 100,000 will have heard of it and know what it is and that person would be a philatelist.
Sounds like good city compost, a rarity. Not many would claim good nitrogen. I didn't push it in my reply since your goat manure would cover any shortage. If you would have been around when I was involved in other container threads, you'd know that I am not afraid of using 100% old horse manure. Haven't found anything that has not enjoyed that. This year it was fresher manure but mixed with compost and older container contents. Again. everything loves it.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 19:12:58 GMT -5
Dang! I ain't got no horses.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 16, 2019 22:18:06 GMT -5
Dang! I ain't got no horses. You have a vehicle. You know what a horse looks like. Drive around until you see some. Owners buy hay by the ton. Their horses produce manure by the ton. Knock,knock. "Howdy, I'm a gardener and would like a few pails of horse manure." "Bring a 12-yard truck, I'll load it for you!" Martin The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 17, 2019 8:09:01 GMT -5
I ride horseback every week and I think that horses poop every 20 minutes or so. They make a LOT of manure.
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Post by Gianna on Jul 17, 2019 10:17:19 GMT -5
Dang! I ain't got no horses. I dont either. But it was easy to find. Check your local Craig's list. Or the Yellow Pages and look up stables in your area. Call them and ask if they have manure for you to take. Some are easier than others to get. My favorite was an adaptive stable and they just piled it up, and I could drive my vehicle right there and shovel it into containers. Of course it was rather fresh, so you'd have to compost it a bit to put around veggies. Although I had no trouble using horse manure, I decided to stop using it. There were some cases (not locally) of herbicide carry-over affecting garden plants and soil from horses eating hay from sources that used certain strong herbicides that just do not break down quickly. Since there was no way for me to find out the source of the hay the animals were eating, I stopped using manure. A pity really. There can be a similar risk from using municipal compost or mulch, but we are not an extensive ag community, so the risk is less. Or so I tell myself. Our current ag is mainly lemons, avocados, and now pot. In all of my pots, I use ample compost made using lots of city mulch. In fact, I'm expecting a delivery in a couple hours and am looking forward to spreading it around. And making a new, large compost pile.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 17, 2019 14:36:52 GMT -5
Yesterday, a clerk at Jung's asked about growing carrots in pots. No doubt she was remembering those 15"+ that I shared last year. She has access to large tree pots and her question was now much sand to use. Don't need sand if the medium is organic. She has access to cow manure and that's close enough to what's needed. Unlike most soil mixes, organic mediums won't become hard or compacted and always drains well.
For horse manure availability, Craigslist indeed is a good place and I have replied to several offers. Not because I didn't have a regular source but to befriend them for others. There is one place where an actual storage area is set up beside the road. It is only aged manure from a larger pile. It's ready to plant in with no fear. Sign says to take some. Only hitch is that it's about 12 miles away. I have 3 places within 2 or 3 miles but the manure is usually fresh. That's what it was this year with most brown instead of black. As a result, the 7-gallon pots first got 5 gallons of that and then topped off with 2 gallons from last year's pots. Thus it wasn't so harsh on seedlings.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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caesg
Pro Member
Posts: 152
Zone:: 5b
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Post by caesg on Jul 22, 2019 12:46:35 GMT -5
I like the image of a self serve aged manure station on the side of the road, paquebot . On the rural to urban scale, where does that neighborhood fall?
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Post by paquebot on Jul 22, 2019 14:16:13 GMT -5
caesg, that manure bin is about a mile from a small city. This is Southern Wisconsin where it's either city or rural and sometimes rural within a city. Many city people have a farm field adjoining their back yard. That's why a few states have "right to farm" laws which mean that the city folk have to put up with a few offensive odors and dust now and then. In the case of the place where the manure bin is, it was a former dairy farm and now boards horses, a common thing around here with one nurse friend having over 30 on her farm. I think that there are about a dozen at the bin farm. What I like is that they use sand on the barn floors. Another source uses sawdust. Don't get a weed jungle with either. Martin The truth is more important than the facts.
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