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Post by paquebot on May 19, 2019 17:08:12 GMT -5
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Post by brownrexx on May 19, 2019 17:32:52 GMT -5
I am always amazed at the size of the root system when I pull up my tomato plants at the end of the season.
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Post by spacecase0 on May 19, 2019 19:34:20 GMT -5
I know what plants like to do, and what they can deal with... in my raised beds, gophers eat everything past the wire, and that is sadly only about 1.5 foot down. watermelons can deal with only 6 inches and be ok...
either way, fantastic book, thank you for posting it.
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Post by pepperhead212 on May 19, 2019 22:14:54 GMT -5
Very interesting, paquebot. Thanks! I saved that, for later reading, but read the chapters on garlic, peppers, and tomatoes. One thing in the tomato chapter that I found interesting was the part about the roots growing out from the stem, when planted with part of the stem underground. This has been disputed in the past, but here they said that many roots grew out from the buried stem, spreading horizontally to 9", and possibly to 2'.
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Post by brownrexx on May 20, 2019 7:30:14 GMT -5
This has been disputed in the past, I don't see how anyone can dispute this. Yesterday I was checking on the moisture in the soil and I pulled some soil away from one of my tomato plants that was looking bad. I saw small roots coming out of the stem where it was below the soil. You can also see roots coming from the stem when putting a cutting in water.
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Post by paquebot on May 20, 2019 8:47:13 GMT -5
I located that site at least 18 years ago and often used it to settle root arguments in Garden Web, IDig, and other forums. I'm surprised that I didn't post it here. I remember it as one f the first site bookmarked and that would have been 2001.
When one studies that, the picture is clear as to what you need to do with the soil to make the plants happy. For overall mass, what one sees aboveground may only be 10%. Tomatoes are an excellent example. There are massive numbers of horizontal roots all within the top 8" and they may extend outward to 9'. Those are the ones looking for food and oxygen, Then multiple vertical tap roots whose main purpose is seeking water. (You get water from a "tap" and now you know why they are called that.)
As to the ability to develop roots from the stem, any plant that can be started from cuttings is able to grow roots from its stem. Tomatoes and their kin can do that, brassica will not. Those roots will first be for feeding and respiration. Then tap roots will go down from them. If the plant stem is buried too deep, the original roots will die from lack of oxygen. The natural depth of the feeder roots is quite defined and you are not going to increase it by setting the plant deeper. If a long plant is laid horizontally within the normal root depth, advantage is that potentially more tap root are formed. However, it does not substantially increase the square footage of the feeder roots.
Oh, did everyone note the depth of asparagus and rhubarb? 10' and still looking for more!
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by pepperhead212 on May 20, 2019 8:48:10 GMT -5
I have never questioned this either, brownrexx, but I have seen some writings stating that it doesn't really help to buyr the stem. I just figured that those were some people who had not grown many tomato plants! Something that I usually see is roots growing out of the stem, 1/4-1/2" above the soil, so I know that roots grow from the stem, but this is the first first time I've seen anything stating how large they can get.
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Post by octave1 on May 20, 2019 9:09:39 GMT -5
I always transplant my tomatoes deep. I remove most of the bottom leaves and bury the stem all the way up to the remaining leaves. My tomatoes grow to a height of 8-10 ft by the end of the season. The main stem becomes massive, gnarly and close to 2 inch in diameter at the base. Some roots will grow straight down, while others spread wide all the way into the walking paths between beds. Those are thick, white cord-like roots. They are never very deep, resting in the first 5-6 inch of topsoil.
If some of the roots die because the root ball had been buried too deep, I never saw any consequence. I don't think that my plants can grow any bigger in my zone. I have had 12+ ft tomato plants in the past, but that was due to a combination of incredible richness of the soil and ideal weather.
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Post by brownrexx on May 20, 2019 9:54:20 GMT -5
pepperhead212, As I thought about this further I think that people maybe are not disputing that roots will grow from the stem but probably disputing the advantage of burying the stem deeper. Just last year I was re-thinking this bury the stem deeper idea because it puts the main rootball of my seedlings closer to the semi compacted clay soil that is below my topsoil. This year I only planted them about an inch deeper than they were when in their pots. My best and most fertile soil is probably in the upper 6-8"
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Post by paquebot on May 20, 2019 14:41:33 GMT -5
If some of the roots die because the root ball had been buried too deep, I never saw any consequence. I don't think that my plants can grow any bigger in my zone. You would not notice a difference without careful excavation. That's because the original roots would be replaced by new ones. Those lateral/feeder roots rely on oxygen as well as nutrients. If planted too deep and into an anaerobic situation, they die. Look at what the site shows. with few exceptions, the feeder roots are only found in the top 6" to 8". If they wee meant to be deeper, they would do so naturally. That's why absorbing everything on that site will let you obtain the maximum from each type. Martin The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by brownrexx on May 20, 2019 14:54:55 GMT -5
These are good points paquebot, and I must say that I never realized this before other than I noticed that in digging too deep I would be planting my seedlings into subsoil and I don't do that. I do usually mix some of the topsoil down into the hole so that the best soil possible is at the bottom of the hole.
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Post by octave1 on May 20, 2019 16:53:43 GMT -5
This is an excerpt from the site paquebot linked, and it pertains tomato plants: "Setting the plants several inches deeper in the soil than they were in the seed bed or container is beneficial since the plant will stand up better and the new roots will develop along the stem. The taller the plants the deeper they should be set. This promotes the growth of a larger and more deeply penetrating root system than where the plants are shallowly set. Experiments in which the plants were set only as deeply as they had been growing in pots resulted in later fruit production, a smaller total yield, and fewer and smaller fruits. Deep planting also holds the plant erect and rigid and reduces injury from strong winds shortly after transplanting and before the roots are reestablished." I understand that deep planting is not suitable for soils that suffer from compaction and where a hardpan has formed, because those conditions would affect the tomato root system negatively and the rootball may die. But in ok soil deep planting is actually recommended.
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Post by paquebot on May 20, 2019 23:27:12 GMT -5
One key phrase in the link quote is "deeper penetration". That refers to downward which is what the tap roots do. Since they develop mainly in the anaerobic zone, that can happen at depths greater than the normal feeder root zone. That in turn supplies more water foliage which is probably 95% or better water. Fruit is supplied by the shallower feeder roots.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by brownrexx on May 21, 2019 8:17:14 GMT -5
It sounds like the key to this is how deep is your good soil? With raised beds like octave1, has it may be deeper than what I have because the bed is sitting on top of more good soil. I only have 6-8" of what I would consider topsoil thus I would not want the rootball to be planted deeper than this. This is an interesting discussion and it touches on some things that many of us may not have considered. Thanks paquebot, for starting this. Before I started coming to gardening forums I naively thought that everyone had the same type of soil and the same types of issues. Honestly I never really gave it much thought. I have learned a lot about gardening over the past few years.
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Post by octave1 on May 21, 2019 13:12:08 GMT -5
My beds are not "technically" raised. As a matter of fact they were at the same level as everything else, but the paths between the beds tend to be a bit sunken due to the fact that we walk on them. Since I never walk (and till) on my beds, they are naturally "growing" in hight, this perhaps due to more aeration--or a denser earthworm population, who knows-- but the difference in hight would be 2 inch at most if the paths weren't covered with both thick cardboard and another thick layer of mulch on top, so in essence visually speaking paths and beds rest at the same level.
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Post by paquebot on May 21, 2019 15:32:50 GMT -5
Brown, good soil is only needed in the first 6 to 8 inches. There's a good reason why most tillers have a maximum dept of 8". That's the only depth where most plants expect to find nutrients. What is below that doesn't matter to the plant as long as there is moisture. That can be pure clay or pure sand, doesn't matter. If there is a solid layer of rock or cement at 2', tap roots simply turn and continue on sideways. Feeder roots have a definied depth, tap roots only have a maximum. Think of some "pot bound" house plants that you may have had to repot. Often big fleshy roots will have made 3 or 4 circles around the bottom of the pot. Under natural conditions, those roots would have gone straight dowb to considerable depths.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by brownrexx on May 21, 2019 19:33:06 GMT -5
That can be pure clay or pure sand, doesn't matter. In my case it's clay.
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Post by pepperhead212 on May 21, 2019 21:15:50 GMT -5
My black, loamy topsoil goes down at least 1 1/2 feet, where it gets sort of gravelly, but still dark. It's not until about 2 1/2 feet that I hit the clay. Only way I know this is from when dug some deep post holes, plus when I dug a deep (3') trench, for laying an underground irrigation line. I'm not sure how deep the roots from my veggies go, but I know some of those weeds go really deep!
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Post by paquebot on May 22, 2019 7:49:38 GMT -5
Few gardeners really know what they have. I live in a city which had Prairie in its name. The land around here is dark prairie soil, some airborne and some alluvial. But that beauty is only skin deep. Our farm had just about everything as there was a moraine through the middle. When I worked part time for an excavator, it was really a lesson in geology/ There was usually up to a foot of almost pure silt on top of 3' of pure clay. Below that was pure sand. Other than the airborne portion of the silt, everything was due to the glacier. The clay is the most interesting part. It is almost like there is a monster web in it. There are lines of calcium crystals all through it. They date back to its original prairie days when a plant penetrated it and left the way open for the next plant. Next time there is any excavating done in your area, stop and look at what's under your garden. It will make you better appreciate what a simple plant can do when it's thirsty.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Deleted
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Joined: January 1970
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Post by Deleted on May 31, 2019 17:16:28 GMT -5
Fellows: I will read the bit about vegetables, but I always suspected that we never saw more than the main framework when we pulled up a plant.
Years ago I was in the soil conservation office in Lawton, Ok. The county agent there had some people wash a serisia lespedeza plant out of a spoil bank, preserving its root system. He had the plant fastened to one wall of his office and the roots trailed around two other walls---probably over 20 feed of root.
This thread had piqued my curiosity---It may be that we plant our veggies too close together in raised beds. And maybe we should make our rows farther apart and our paths narrow.
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Post by hairymooseknuckles on May 31, 2019 18:47:54 GMT -5
I always transplant my tomatoes deep. I remove most of the bottom leaves and bury the stem all the way up to the remaining leaves. My tomatoes grow to a height of 8-10 ft by the end of the season. The main stem becomes massive, gnarly and close to 2 inch in diameter at the base. Some roots will grow straight down, while others spread wide all the way into the walking paths between beds. Those are thick, white cord-like roots. They are never very deep, resting in the first 5-6 inch of topsoil. If some of the roots die because the root ball had been buried too deep, I never saw any consequence. I don't think that my plants can grow any bigger in my zone. I have had 12+ ft tomato plants in the past, but that was due to a combination of incredible richness of the soil and ideal weather. Yes! When I was able, I used an auger on the back of my tractor to dig holes for tomatoes. You can also enrich your soil one hole at a time. Tomatoes will not grow deep roots in clay soil unless you help them by loosening the soil. In Loose soil, a tomato root will grow all the way to China. That's a bit of a tall tale about China, but they will travel pretty deep.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 8:56:58 GMT -5
In studying this I realize I made a big mstake filling my raised bed for onions.
I filled 15 inches of it with "compost",. really a coarseley ground mix of yard trimmngs, grass, small branches that is really more mulch than compost. I filled the top 8 inches with Walmart potting soil of several grades.
Knowing that the "compost" had a long way to go I mixed 10 20 10 in with it, filled the bed and planted onions. I side-dressed the onions with the same fertilizer a week after planting.
I know now that the onion roots are already in the "compost", but what they will find there I do not know. They are growing but very unevenly.
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Post by paquebot on Jun 1, 2019 12:02:24 GMT -5
Ox, onions are one of the exceptions to the 8" maximum feeding depth. Think of their cousin, garlic. When you dig a garlic bulb, the base may be 6" below the surface. That means the feeder roots are well below that. When I worked one bed over for garlic, I did it with a 16" trenching shovel. Currently has some very happy onions. What you onions are finding may be an anaerobic condition in that mulch stuff. he wrong bacteria may be attacking the onions roots since they can't distinguish between what they need and what you want. From the sound of what who put in there, any problem should only last one year before it's broken down and neutral.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Deleted
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Post by Deleted on Jun 1, 2019 18:27:52 GMT -5
Martin: I am encouraged by the day=to-day growth. It may be that I got such a late start that I am seeing only the "beginning" of the story. Some of the onions have several leaves and are 16 inches high, others are 4 inches high with three leaves. I will try again next year, and I have located more lumber for more raised beds.
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Post by paquebot on Jun 1, 2019 19:51:11 GMT -5
When you make your new beds, remember what the plants need below ground. If you are going to plant something with deep roots, you have to have good ground before you add the first shovel of dirt. I didn't plan my first raised bed for deep roots. It was on top of good healthy sod. Eight inches of woods and prairie silt was ample for brassica which was the crop for years. Failed miserably with garlic and onions. This year there are onions 18" tall and still growing. Their roots are very happy.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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caesg
Pro Member
Posts: 152
Zone:: 5b
Favorite Vegetable:: Butternut Squash
Joined: April 2018
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Post by caesg on Jun 2, 2019 13:15:17 GMT -5
spacecase0, do you know of any sites or books that list off the sort of information you were alluding to, in regards to what "will suffice"/plants can deal with? I often am looking more for diversity in my garden than I am for optimal conditions and optimal production. Optimal production is typically far more than my family will consume.
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caesg
Pro Member
Posts: 152
Zone:: 5b
Favorite Vegetable:: Butternut Squash
Joined: April 2018
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Post by caesg on Jun 2, 2019 13:18:28 GMT -5
paquebot,this is super interesting. Thank you for sharing! In addition to improving my general garden knowledge and understanding of optimal conditions, it will also help as I balance trade offs in regards to growing in my tight urban space and with limited resources to dedicate to the garden.
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Post by spacecase0 on Jun 2, 2019 23:45:57 GMT -5
spacecase0, do you know of any sites or books that list off the sort of information you were alluding to, in regards to what "will suffice"/plants can deal with? I often am looking more for diversity in my garden than I am for optimal conditions and optimal production. Optimal production is typically far more than my family will consume. container gardening tells you what plants can deal with. my experience tells me that most plants can deal with things like a gopher eating roots up to about 6 inches to the plant, closer than that and it kills the plant. but that is where the ground to the sides is available to the plant unlike in most container gardening.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 13, 2019 20:06:49 GMT -5
While we are discussing root systems, let's mention Asparagus. I have an "OLD" bed and a new bed, plus a small bed out back.
Has anyone ever tilled an asparagus bed? If a bed is tilled, will any of the plants re-root and recover?
I tilled a blackberry thicket, and it seemed to me that every plant that I did not physically drag out of the bed rooted again and became a weed. I wonder if asparagus wold do that?
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Post by paquebot on Jun 13, 2019 22:05:45 GMT -5
If the asparagus is dormant, an established bed should be safe if tilled 4" to 5" deep. Crown is usually 6" deep but you do not want to damage that.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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