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Post by paquebot on Aug 20, 2019 20:53:00 GMT -5
Pop some popcorn and pull up a chair. We may be here for awhile!
No, Gianna, go back to your original post and my original reply and you will see where something was lost. You planned to plant a cover crop and then harvest it leaving only the roots. That defeats the "enrichment" part of cover crops since it is a subtraction rather than an addition. Some here are thinking that I an writing against cover crops but it is not true. It is just that what you propose is not the purpose or act of either cover crops or green manure. I have grass on my lawn. It is protecting the soil from being blown over to Michigan and I collect the clippings. But it is not a cover crop.
In ag class, we only learned of three cover crops; clover, field peas, and rye. Field peas and rye grew to frost and were plowed under before they could begin to dry out and lose the nitrogen. Clover was left to winter over and plowed under in the spring. (Buckwheat was not mentioned that I remember.) The one thing common with both was that they were plowed under where the nitrogen would be retained in the soil. We never heard of it being called green manure but that is merely a fine line between living and dead/dying, usually from frost here.
One key part to the success is the one which has doomed it except on very fragile soil. That is the word "plowed". To be effective as a nitrogen fertilizer, it must be plowed under. That does not mean spaded or roto-tilled. The moldboard plow turns it over and buries it at least 6" deep/ Everything is trapped at a depth where the next crop will use it. Problem is that the horsepower needed to pull a 3-bottom moldboard plow is as much or more than a 12' chisel plow. Few farmers now have not adopted to minimum-till where they actually work the soil deeper but with less fuel costs. Cover crops would become a problem rather than an asset with minimum tillage.
Several here, including myself, have mentioned a problem when not done properly. Seeds from the initial sowing are not buried deep enough to prevent germination. Almost impossible to prevent it by merely spading while tiller guarantees it. That's the main reason why a true cover crop in a garden is not a good idea.
And there is the matter of the roots alone adding organic matter to the soil. If they did that, forests would be nothing but organic matter for 3' or more depth. Even root crops like carrots or daikon radishes don't do it. In old forests, there may be a foot of organic matter sitting on top of pure dirt. That all comes from above and most is humus. Humus is basically carbon and lasts almost forever. Plants get their carbon via photosynthesis which takes place in the air, not in the ground. Anything which does not have carbon will quickly vanish by breaking down into individual cells and be consumed by soil bacteria. So, the idea of roots alone being used to get organic matter into the soil does not fly well.
Sorry that this had to become a diarrhea of words but needed in order to cover pros and cons of the topic. I had to become your most hated professor but those are the ones you most remember. They taught and you learned.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 20, 2019 21:18:18 GMT -5
paquebot , I have no intention of even reading your last post. Real life is tough. I come to this site to discuss hobby gardening and generally have fun - not to dissect meaningless minutia with a self-proclaimed Know-it-all. Think Homesteading Today.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 20, 2019 21:38:52 GMT -5
I spent a few hours working in front today and got the next bed finished. It's a small one - about 11 feet long, 3 feet wide, and lined/supported on one side by some interlocking concrete bricks I'd used in the back yard. The soil I piled in there had a fair amount of organic material already so I added nothing else. The soil quality is fair. Mostly a sandy silt mixed with some native clay. This layer is about 6 inches deep, with the native clay beneath.
The cover crop I planted in this bed was almost the same as the seeds in the previous bed: sunflower, 2 kinds of peas, buckwheat, purple kohlrabi, red clover, and this time a few Romano bean seeds. Year before last I threw in some extra French Filet bean seeds in the cover crop mix, and I actually could pick nice beans at Christmas. That was a pleasant surprise.
This bed is also in a location where lots of arugula seeds are in the soil. I hope lots of that comes up too. In this climate, it makes a great cover crop.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 20, 2019 21:41:14 GMT -5
Some pills are hard to swallow but in the end they are worth it for the cure. Glad to see that you did read it. There is never a day when a gardener should not learn something, especially all others who visit this forum to learn something..
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 20, 2019 21:52:05 GMT -5
Glad to see that you did read it. ?? No, I did not read your long post, and have no intention of doing so. I'm trying to not be rude to you so I wont say anything further.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 20, 2019 23:00:13 GMT -5
Sometimes I think that knowledge and experience is a bane, not a benefit. Sharing it is a natural human trait and goes back into antiquity. Soil management was the difference between success and failure in time of subsistence farming and predates recorded history. Emphasis was always on returning as much to the soil as taken out. Worked 5,000 years ago and still applies. There was a system then that is right in line with this thread topic. Fields were left fallow every few years. The purpose was to allow plants to grow and then be tilled in. Some Amish farmers still do that.
The only difference between a half-section farm and backyard garden is size. What one learns about one is usually quite applicable to the other. If something fails in one, it will probably fail in the other but a different scale. When survival of humans depended on what could be produced close as hand, failure was not an option. Gardening now has become mostly a hobby but the same rules of growing things still apply. Economy may dictate that methods change but plant needs never change without genetic modification. They still require X amount of NPK, water, and something to anchor their roots. (OK, aquaponics excepted but still NPK.) When going hungry is not an option in today's supermarket mentality, failure to properly manage the soil isn't important. Also not important if there is no concern for the next generations.
Another this that applies to us gardeners is that soil and the use of it has been virtually studied to death. The results are always the same and predictable. Every vegetable has been determined to require X amount of nutrients and X soil conditions. Sharing such knowledge and experience is what gardening forums are for. The minute that they become just a lonely hearts coffee klatch is when they fail to fulfill their purpose. Hearken to what is on every post that I make. "The truth is more important than the facts." The same person who said that had another good one. "There is nothing more uncommon than common sense."
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 21, 2019 0:04:38 GMT -5
I'm also interested in no till because my days of standing behind one are over. I do miss plowing on my Farmall though. That is something that takes years to accomplish but not impossible. In Nature, it takes a thousand years to make an inch of soil in the form of duff or humus. I once read of a Southern Michigan gardener who bemoaned his poor soil. He said that it took thousands of years to make good soil and the glacier came along and gave it all to Indiana. In the northwoods of MN, there are some forests with a foot of that and nightcrawler can destroy 10,000 years effort in one year but that's for a different topic. For us to do it means an awful lot of high-carbon material which means wood and deciduous leaves. The result is not one of the three soil components of clay, sand, and silt but humus. Once you have that, it will last for centuries. Problem is that you must obtain the equal of a thousand years of material to make a single inch. I've been trying to accomplish that for 56 years and close but won't have enough years left to accomplish the 10,000 year goal. Martin The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by farmerjack41 on Aug 21, 2019 2:43:59 GMT -5
Would love to plant a cover crop or green manure crop in the fall. Problem I have I am working leaves, compost, cow manure, etc into the ground up till the time it freezes. Last thing I do just before the ground freezes hard is to plow it all under. If my garden space was twice the size, half would be in green manure every year. Adding organic matter is always on my mind, as the need for heavy irrigation uses it up.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 21, 2019 6:41:43 GMT -5
Adding organic matter is always on my mind, as the need for heavy irrigation uses it up. Same here. I garden on a smaller scale than you do, so I can go bed by bed giving each whatever treatment I want. As mentioned, I no longer till, so I have to resort to other methods to get the organic material deeper into the soil. It requires more hand work, but that's part of what I enjoy about gardening. Anything that grows in a bed, either planted or weedy (with the exception of grasses), gets clipped off at the base leaving the root systems beneath the surface undisturbed. Since there generally is as much root biomass as there is stem biomass, that leaves a lot of organic matter in the soil, in place, without having to dig it in. I actually enjoy the digging and actually miss it, but I'm looking towards the future as i continue to age and might not be as able to do that. For me, being no dig, garden productivity has not suffered. But then I've also been working on soil health for many years. When using cover crops, I chop and drop then cover with a light-proof tarp, and let it the herbaceous organic matter break down. Since there is no frost here, biological activity continues 12 months of the year so I can cover for a month or 2 or 3 and be ready come planting time. I dont know what the strategy would be in parts of the country that get cold. You mention heavy irrigation.. I would have been doing even more cover crops the past couple years, but our drought was really bad and using that much water in a residential area was simply not possible. We were under severe water restrictions - not only amounts but hours/days when we could water, and the cost was also increased. But we got good rains and all restrictions have been lifted, so I can go back to planting and watering whatever I want. And planting cover crops going into the fall are very appealing now. With 2 beds already planted, I've got maybe 4 more I want to do.
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Post by brownrexx on Aug 21, 2019 7:25:36 GMT -5
But we got good rains and all restrictions have been lifted, so I can go back to planting and watering whatever I want. That must be really nice for you. That hasn't happened for a long time. Of course, on a downside, now those weed seeds that have been sitting dormant for years will start growing!
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Post by paquebot on Aug 21, 2019 9:02:24 GMT -5
What many fail to realize is that anything lacking carbon is gone within one year. That is the natural way that plants recycle themselves. Far Western states used to have lush vegetation supporting huge dinosaurs. Ashes to ashes and dust to dust is certainly true. Everything died and returned to dust and was blown into Nebraska and Iowa.
Years ago I had a lot of amaryllis in pots. Start out with a 2" bulb in a 6" pot. A few years later there would be a 6" bulb. When removed from the pot, no soil. The plant ate it. I grow carrots in 7-gallon pots. Best medium is old horse manure. Harvest the carrots and there's only about 4 gallons of medium left. The carrots ate the rest. With the exception of carbon or silica in plants, everything else will break down into individual cells to be reused by the next generation. That's why adding simple compost to soil is a never-ending project. It is meant to only last one season in Nature and we can't change that. There is no way to prevent soil bacteria from doing their job.
Cover crops/green manure are not grown to alter the soil structure. Their importance is to recycle the nutrients obtained from the soil, phosphorus and potassium, and preserve the nitrogen obtained from the air. Because the cost of organic sources of nitrogen is too high for most organic market operations, a green manure crop is a cheaper substitute. Home gardeners can accomplish the same by trenching in fresh grass clippings or other green refuse. If left on the surface to dry, most of the nitrogen returns to where it came from the air. Unlike phosphorus and potassium, the plants don't try to retain nitrogen since it is so freely available. If the gardener or farmer doesn't supply it, the plant will make it on its own but slow. Our Goal is to give it what it needs to start with so it can get on its business of producing what we want from it. Can't change something that's been going on forever. All we can do is try to manage Nature.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 21, 2019 9:55:47 GMT -5
That must be really nice for you. That hasn't happened for a long time. It most certainly is nice - the last drought was bad for about 5 years with corresponding necessity of 'cutting back'. We cut back in the house severely so I could continue gardening since it's so important to me. Of course, on a downside, now those weed seeds that have been sitting dormant for years will start growing! Before I found this place and the organic gardening forum, I participated on some permaculture sites. While there, I came to realize that not all weeds are bad (with the exception of Bermuda grass, and ones that cause pain). The weeds would only really come up after rains, and I learned to look at them as in situ cover crops - living plants with roots that would benefit the soil. Just make sure to whack them off before they set seed. Many of the weeds that prosper here are from Mediterranean climates, so they grow well and die when the water runs out. I'd prefer to have other things growing of course, but in a fallow bed, they serve a purpose, they are free, they grow well and require no special care. You just have to learn how to control them. So maybe they really arent weeds?
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Post by bestofour on Aug 21, 2019 10:58:20 GMT -5
Gianna, would love to see pictures of your garden. I am not a person who can visualize by words or drawings well. To me being able to do that is truly a gift. Thankfully my husband has it or our house, that we've remodeled over the years, would be a disaster. I tiller a little bit. I tried lasagna gardening one year and so many bugs took up residence under the cardboard I put down that it was horrible. Some of them ate my little seedlings to the ground. I had to remove it to get anything to grow. A friend in Kansas has used this method for years with great success. I think it's the different climates.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 21, 2019 12:48:32 GMT -5
Gianna, would love to see pictures of your garden. I'm sorry, I currently dont have anything to take pictures with. I tried lasagna gardening one year and so many bugs took up residence under the cardboard I put down that it was horrible. Some of them ate my little seedlings to the ground. I had to remove it to get anything to grow. A friend in Kansas has used this method for years with great success. I think it's the different climates. I've seen people use the cardboard, but I can't imagine that working here either. As you say, different climates. Here I think bugs and snails and slugs would love living under it and be waiting for the seedling buffet to start. I have used cardboard sometimes on the paths, and cover that with mulch - that works well because nothing can grow through it.Because of all the critters here, moisture issues, and often compost/mulch covering the beds, I transplant larger starts of almost everything going into the ground or I'd have no crops.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 21, 2019 13:23:01 GMT -5
I tiller a little bit. I tried lasagna gardening one year and so many bugs took up residence under the cardboard I put down that it was horrible. Some of them ate my little seedlings to the ground. I had to remove it to get anything to grow. A friend in Kansas has used this method for years with great success. I think it's the different climates. Your bug issue would have been pill bugs. They feast on dead or dying matter including wood and wood products. Normally they are welcome in a compost venue but have a nasty habit of not being able to determine a slightly ill seedling with something that you want to grow. Often it's just a lower leaf or two but too often the entire seedling. They are also one drawback from mulching with straw or hay. They thrive in the moisture. Martin The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by bestofour on Aug 21, 2019 21:10:45 GMT -5
paquebot, yep that's most of what lived under the cardboard. They would bite the tiny seedling stem right in half. There were hundreds of them. ewwwwwww. Do they only live in certain climates as in not Kansas where my friend had such great luck?
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Post by Gianna on Aug 23, 2019 13:54:37 GMT -5
I'm pleased to report that the cover crop seeds planted in the first bed are germinating in under a week. The buckwheat is obvious, and so are the two kinds of peas, though thus far there arent many peas up. There are also a good number of small dicot seedlings - they could be anything including some of the smaller seeds I broadcast. No grasses yet. There has been some bird damage in the form of yanked seedlings, but that's OK. We have lovely brown, plump-bodied towhees that work the ground, and I'm happy to feed them from that bed, especially at this dry time of year. There will be more than enough for everyone. Last night I ordered two other seed varieties to add to the remaining beds I'm going to plant - Austrian pea, and hairy vetch. That species of vetch is naturalized in our area, so it should do well in the yard. There was some growing down on the hill, but I dont think it's there anymore. I have another species of vetch that comes up in front, but it tends to not set much seed, so I didnt collect any. The place I purchased my cover crop seeds were also selling 'cover crops for the garden'. Their mix was mostly legume, cole and grass species. I wont buy grass seeds however since there are many naturalized Mediterranean weedy species here already. And those are free - green is green. Same with mustards and wild radishes. I'm hoping in the back beds some will come up when I start watering them again - they usually do. Progress - bed by bed.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 24, 2019 12:34:29 GMT -5
Was just working in the back and preparing the former yacon bed for planting a cover crop. That bed and the adjacent one had had a CC a couple years ago, and really helped up the organic matter. At the time I was also using both beds to facilitate rain-water catchment. It was beautiful with all the blooms and greenery.
To aid in the decomposition of the yacon, this bed had been moistened and covered for a couple months, and had the remains of the yacon, some weeds, and lots of mulch on top of that. There was nice decomposition, but I decided since the timing is right, I'd rather plant cc seeds. So I removed the bulkier resistant bases of the plants, raked up what was left of the mulch, removed the soaker hoses, lightly raked the surface to even it, and later today will broadcast and water the seeds. I would have liked to use the new coming seeds, but I dont want to wait till Tuesday. I was going to plant the most recent rooted tomato cuttings into this bed too, but for winter tomatoes, it's not sunny enough.
In the front, in the first bed with a CC this year, there is more germination. I can now see some crucifer leaves. The purple ones are likely the kohlrabi, and the plain green ones are likely arugula. I did see a few California poppy seedlings too. Very distinctive dicots. There are other seedlings too, but too young to recognize. No grasses yet. Kind of fun watching what comes up.
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Post by Gianna on Sept 7, 2019 11:05:54 GMT -5
The cover crop/green manure project in the garden is proceeding well. Just planted the 4th bed the other day, and plan to seed another later today. I want to plant more flowers in my mixes. No reason for the beds to not be pretty while concurrently enriching the soil. It's estimated that 60% of our original grasslands were flowers. And around here, in the right conditions, there can be massive wildflower displays. In some years on this property I've had lovely displays of native lupine and poppies.
The last couple garden beds Ive also planted rows of green peas down the center, with cover crop varieties along the sides. Hopefully the best of both worlds.
I've been increasing the varieties being planted, including some from the grocery store such as lentils, cow peas, mung beans... The real experts advise, on average, about a dozen different species for best results, with a mix of types (grasses, legumes and other forbs). 'Best results' include not only better rain penetration, but also retention, which in our drought-prone area would be great. The word they used I thought most appealing was creating a soil that acted like a sponge.
A couple of the pros also experimented with what they called 'chaos gardens' with cover crops and veggies totally intertwined. Not the most orderly of veg gardens, but very green, and seemingly very productive, ...and which benefited their local food banks with lots of fresh produce.
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Post by brownrexx on Sept 7, 2019 15:38:27 GMT -5
I want to plant more flowers in my mixes. No reason for the beds to not be pretty while concurrently enriching the soil. I love that idea and it sounds pretty. The woman who owns the horses that I ride lives on her grandfather's farm and she also farms it. Next year she wants to experiment with planting strips of flowers between areas of crops. There is a name for this but I forget what it's called. Anyway it is supposed to bring pollinators and good bugs who will eat the bad bugs on the crops. Interesting. She also is thinking of planting a field of sunflowers. I like riding horses and I also enjoy seeing what is going on around the farm.
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Post by bestofour on Sept 7, 2019 19:17:25 GMT -5
Gianna, how cool does your weather get? I have a difficult time growing green peas, one of my favs, because if I plant too late in the spring the heat gets them but if I plant too early in the spring the cold gets them. I keep trying though. I plant flowers with my vege garden and I plant sunflowers too. This year the deer ate the sunflowers.
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