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Post by daylilydude on Jun 3, 2011 7:30:35 GMT -5
I have been reading up on garlic and the pulling of the garlic has me confused? Some say when there is about 40% dead leaves, and others say let the plant completely die before pulling, what says you??
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Post by coppice on Jun 3, 2011 18:40:35 GMT -5
I'm tapering off watering my garlic. it is begining to get tan leaf tips.
I dunno how to make myself clear. One morning you'll look at garlic and notice its sad looking. A morning or three later, its just obviously dormant. Pull em then.
Soft necks will fall over, as well as being pretty brown and toasty. Hard necks will stand tall and be brown as a russet spud...
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Post by pepperhead212 on Jun 4, 2011 8:53:46 GMT -5
Definitely don't let softnecks die completely back! The ONLY year I grew one of these (it was supposedly the most intense variety available...the only reason) it rained badly while they were died off, and when I went to harvest, I couldn't find them! Even though I dug down the row, pretty much were they should have been, they were hard to find, and I found a few when I turned the row over a week or so later.
I let my garlic die back about 50%, then I dig under and check how large a few have gotten. If really good, I dig them up, otherwise I let them go another week or two, keeping a close eye on the forecast, and pulling them quickly if there is a sign of rain. Not sure if they are still growing, but it doesn't seem to hurt.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 4, 2011 10:44:12 GMT -5
You need the living leaves to form a good wrapper on the bulb. Once the leaves die the "paper" begins to decompose, so harvesting when about half the leaves are still alive gives you a good balance of clove maturity and storage protection. Last year I left a few hardnecks in to die back all the way because I wanted mature bulbils on the scapes. When I dug them up the rotted papers slipped off the cloves. I pulled one plant up and the cloves stayed in the ground
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Post by coppice on Jun 10, 2011 5:48:19 GMT -5
My hardnecks are starting to brown up. I pulled the first couple yesterday just to see how much they'd bulbed up.
They did ok, but like youer onion, this is the first year this bed has had any real application of organic material and I suspect it (allium) needs to be later in the rotation before I'll see any thing that really looks big & fat.
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okiedrifter
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Post by okiedrifter on Jun 10, 2011 8:16:09 GMT -5
I have permission to dig elephant ear garlic on 2 old homesteads Lord only knows when the last time was they were dug and in the process of finding the owner of a third...these bloom every year....what am I gonna find when I do dig them any ideas? and what do I do with them?
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Post by w8in4dave on Jun 10, 2011 9:01:36 GMT -5
I didn't gey scapes off my garlic and the leaves are turning brown .... my first year .... Is there something wrong? Should I pull them??? I am so excited about these , I put them in a lil raised bed and they grew!!
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Post by Deleted on Jun 11, 2011 7:05:08 GMT -5
are they softnecks? they dont generally, so far as I know, produce scapes. My hardnecks are all sending up scapes now.
Tom
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okiedrifter
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Post by okiedrifter on Jun 11, 2011 9:53:00 GMT -5
what is a scapes?
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Post by coppice on Jun 12, 2011 9:41:23 GMT -5
On hardneck garlic about now a spiral spear headed shaped spear will erupt from the crown. It will straighten over a couple weeks and will swell with tiny garlic babies. The correct name for them garlic babies, are bulbils. Bulbils are not true seeds as they need to be promptly replanted. If they are dried, they die. If you let scape mature, your garlic bulb will not be as big. If you replant all the bulbils in a scape when it fills and splits, you will dramatically increase next years garlic crop. So its up to you, do you need more garlic now, or more later?
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Post by bluelacedredhead on Jun 12, 2011 14:10:34 GMT -5
All hardnecks here as well, and just like W8in, No Scapes yet. Leaves are starting to fall over though. Could be because of all the rain that MI and Ontario have had. Not much we can do about that. Just wait a little longer for a harvest I suppose.
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Post by horsea on Jun 21, 2011 16:12:13 GMT -5
... you will dramatically increase next years garlic crop. So its up to you, do you need more garlic now, or more later? As I understand it, the next year's garlic crop from bulbils will be tiny and will take several years to grow into a usable size. As far as I know, anyway. I've had bulbils plant themselves and next year the garlic was like blades of grass.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 21, 2011 20:11:51 GMT -5
Garlic that seeds itself when scapes fall over are not spaced correctly. With the amount of nutrients necessary to grow good garlic sizes, the volunteers are always tiny. If they are just left in the ground, I imagine it would take a long time to get to any size. Always dig up the volunteers and rehome them. Do not let your garlic crowd in the bed, it will be much smaller if you leave those in. They can be planted in their own bed for another harvest later.
Most garlic require about 5 inches of spacing depending on their variety
Oh this is a fun topic. Soft necks and Hard necks vary greatly both by the growing of and storing of. Soft necks do not have the ability to be stored at room temp for the length of time that hard necks do. On my German Purple Striped Garlic hardnecks, a sharp tasting firm garlic....the Bulbils can produce a divided bulb in one season under ideal conditions, if you want them to divide you have to put in some effort. Which if divided you separate, amend the soil and replant for the next season. If not divided when you check after your first season and you see a single celled garlic, simply add some amending and leave in for the next season. For this variety you will get nice table sized garlic of 2 1/2 inches on your small ones on up to 3 1/2 inches for a more average size. I have stored them for six months and not had them sprout either so they store great. I have planted bulbils from a prior year of these fully dried and they sprouted right up at 100% viability. The info on Garlic is going to be unique to each variety to some degree. You can get wonderful garlic from the bulbils from my variety in a maximum of two seasons or in one season get good garlic from the cloves being planted instead. Now the fun Garlic I planted this season was the Elephant Garlic that my sister grows. Although they are actually from the leek family, they taste like a mild garlic so I wanted them too. She has a pic of one of them on a scale at over 5 lbs and it was not her biggest one! She weighed an average sized garlic of my variety at half a pound! It does not take the amount of years to get good garlic I read was on this thread from bulbils but it will depend on which variety you choose how long it takes. If you plant garlic in poor soil, they come out small. They are high nitrogen feeders. I also fertilize mine with Nettle compost and Seaweed plus vegetable compost....
My garlic is doing amazing this year and I am so excited to harvest it.... Boy if it took years..I wouldn't even plant it. I have been growing garlic for years...nothing better to pull out and cook with as they sell some pretty awful stuff in the store, raised with the pesticides first and then they spray on chemicals to prevent the sprouting...yuck! I like organic produce so I grow what I can. I dig these when the scapes die back. That happens around August here.
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littleminnie
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Post by littleminnie on Jun 21, 2011 20:22:28 GMT -5
I believe these are Chinese Pink which are an early variety. They are softneck but usually scape. I believe I was in the correct 3rd bed pulling these. I pulled a few young garlic today for CSAs. They are just beginning to scape but they have not curled yet. I will pull scapes next week. PS how many chop the 'flower' of the scape and eat it too and how many toss it? I have heard 2 people at market say to not eat it. I always eat them.
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Post by horsea on Jun 21, 2011 22:39:11 GMT -5
OK - so I should take the bulbils and plant them in a new spot, 6" apart also (same as cloves), and if conditions are very good, I'll get the same results as if I planted a clove?
So there's no need to save some cloves, then, for the fall sowing. Just save some bulbils and plant them correctly and give them good growing conditions. Well, live & learn, I always say.
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Post by daylilydude on Jun 21, 2011 22:46:55 GMT -5
PS how many chop the 'flower' of the scape and eat it too and how many toss it? I have heard 2 people at market say to not eat it. I always eat them. I am one that eats them too! Here is a pic of my garlic harvest!
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Post by paquebot on Jun 22, 2011 21:18:30 GMT -5
If you let scape mature, your garlic bulb will not be as big. If you replant all the bulbils in a scape when it fills and splits, you will dramatically increase next years garlic crop. So its up to you, do you need more garlic now, or more later? In actual controlled growing, the size difference claim is now being refuted. Didn't make any difference last year when approximately 100 varieties had scapes left to maturity. I had known that with certain rocamboles but didn't know that it extended to all hardnecks. There are 3 distinct types of bulbils with each developing different. Most rocambole types have bulbils up to the size of a marble. All rocambole types will produce a divided bulb in one season but size varies considerably with variety. It may be a 1" bulb with 3 or 4 cloves or a 3" bulb with a dozen cloves. Purple stripe and similar types generally have bulbils about the size of a small pea. A few may produce a 1" divided bulb but usually it's a solid round. Third type of bulbil isn't much bigger than a grain of wheat. They will produce a round about the size of a pea. When those are planted back, a larger round is produced which divides the third year. Music is a good example. A single umbel may contain more than a hundred bulbils but it takes 4 years to obtain full size. Martin
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Post by horsea on Jun 22, 2011 23:54:33 GMT -5
"There are 3 distinct types of bulbils with each developing different. Most rocambole types have bulbils up to the size of a marble. All rocambole types will produce a divided bulb in one season but size varies considerably with variety. It may be a 1" bulb with 3 or 4 cloves or a 3" bulb with a dozen cloves"
This is what I needed to hear. Clear & simple.
So, we should plant both cloves & bulbils (from our rocamboles) and wait and see what happens next year. It's not like I'm a commercial grower or anything.
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Post by paquebot on Jun 23, 2011 19:25:30 GMT -5
This is what I needed to hear. Clear & simple. So, we should plant both cloves & bulbils (from our rocamboles) and wait and see what happens next year. It's not like I'm a commercial grower or anything. That's correct in the case of at least some of the rocamboles. I've seen claims of some purple striped types producing decent divided bulbs but they almost need special conditions to do that. A 1¼" bulb may be fine for some but not if normal size is 2½". An example of how long from smallest to biggest is the Estonian Red, one of the largest varieties grown in Europe. Bulbils were obtained from Denmark and not much bigger than a grain of wheat. When they sprouted, they made but a single leaf and went dormant. Soil was sifted to locate the pea-sized rounds. Those were planted back and emerged as either 2 or 3 leaves. The bulbs were a little bigger than an ordinary marble. They were planted back and produced a proper plant, complete with scape, and a 1½" divided bulb. The cloves from them finally produced the expected 3" bulbs. Took 4 years to get that far and that still was not their maximum size. There is a company in Canada which only sells bulbils since they are easier to ship to the US. We got about 30-40 varieties a few years ago. Largest ones went into the field with everything else. Smallest types went into various containers with half here and half at the farm. I had 11 varieties to plant back as their third season last fall. All look like they are going to be decent size and we'll have cloves to plant this fall. Martin
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Post by horsea on Jun 23, 2011 20:06:49 GMT -5
Well, why plant and replant? How about sticking your bulbils into the ground, well spaced, and just wait 3 years and see what happens.
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littleminnie
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Post by littleminnie on Jun 23, 2011 20:43:38 GMT -5
What do people do with their bulbils? I always think they would be great candied or something but who wants to peel them? So ideas?
In the garden: small cloves and bulbils are great for market gardeners. You can stick them everywhere in fall or early spring and pull for baby garlic. I have to explain what baby garlic is to everyone at market. It is immature garlic dammit! Still it is something I can bring to market early before there are scapes.
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Post by paquebot on Jun 23, 2011 23:48:52 GMT -5
Well, why plant and replant? How about sticking your bulbils into the ground, well spaced, and just wait 3 years and see what happens. One reason would be the amount of space they would take up. Since any decent size variety would require at least 6", that's the space that you'd have to plant them at. If they are the smallest bulbil type, you'd have what appears to be a single blade of grass every 6" the first year and vanishing in another few weeks here. Weeding would be a minor problem while the plants were growing but a major problem afterward since it would have to manual, no hoes. Garlic does not like competition of any kind so weed control is critical. Instead, those smallest ones can be planted in a 1" grid pattern since that's all they need to produce that pea-sized round. In turn, those pea-sized rounds can be planted in a 2" grid pattern. It's only the third year that the 6" spacing is needed. Thus it's possible to plant that way but not practical with the smallest types. Same applies to the middle-sized ones except that you would be expecting a larger round. Same 6" eventual need but they can be planted at 3" the first year. That is contingent upon the variety and some may produce a small divided bulb. If they do that, you then would have multiples coming up that would only produce small rounds. Large ones can go directly to the 6" to 8" spacing since they may produce a proper bulb. I say "may" since not all varieties do that. It's the rocambole types which produce the largest bulbils and yet there is a big difference between varieties. Some bulbils produce a pencil-thin stalk and 3 leaves. Others produce a stalk as thick as my thumb. Another factor to be figured in is that not every bulbil is going to sprout. The one certain thing that I've found is that the bigger the bulbil, the better chance of survival. I expected almost 100% with an 18-variety rocambole experiment but probably got 90%. Middle size may be 75% while the smallest are 50% or less. It's only in the second year that one can expect close to 100% for any size of rounds or cloves. So, you can plant and leave but the results depend upon the variety and how diligent you want to be between planting and harvest when they may be 3 years apart. I began with 62 Estonian Red bulbils. Lost a few from the first planting. Lost a few more from the second. Ended up with about 45 or so bulbs in the end. Martin
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Post by paquebot on Jun 24, 2011 0:16:19 GMT -5
What do people do with their bulbils? I always think they would be great candied or something but who wants to peel them? So ideas? What do we do with ours? We cut the scapes and haul them to a burning pile. If left on the plant, the curing shed floor becomes a virtual sea of marbles to try to walk on. If cut and left on the ground, there is enough energy stored in the stalks to continue maturing them and we don't want a field of volunteers. One variety which I grow at home is distributed mainly as bulbils. When the bulbs are ready to harvest, the umbel containing the bulbils is still tight and the bulbils only half developed. The scapes are cut off just where they come out of the leaves and placed in a pail of water. They will continue to mature for another month just on the energy contained in the stalk. Doing something culinary with them only applies to the medium and larger types. The smaller ones would be like peeling a grain of rice. However, they all can be crushed and used as soup stock which is to be strained. Then there is no need to peel them. Again, depends upon variety and type. Smallest will make only a single leaf perhaps only 4 or 5 inches long. Medium type may only produce 2 or 3 leaves up to 6 inches long and little or stem to support them. It's the rocambole type bulbils which will produce the best garlic scallions. They have the central stalk which is the beginnings of the hard neck and that's what's required for them. There's another way you can get garlic scallions. Plant an entire rocambole bulb in the fall. Every single clove will sprout in the spring and you can dig up an entire cluster of almost identical plants. That's a good consequence of forgetting to dig a bulb. Such a clump may as well be dug up as scallions regardless since there will never ever be a bulb under it, just a few small rounds. Martin
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Post by Deleted on Jul 1, 2011 0:54:03 GMT -5
The reason you check is to see if the bulbils have produced a single cell is to know whether to leave them in or not. If they are single cell, then simply amend that soil from up top and leave in. They need very nutrient rich soil to flourish that is also well draining. If the bulb is divided in one year, you dig up the divided bulbs and replant cloves tips up 5 to 6 inches apart, even if they are small. You can also eat what you don't plant. Their size is really determined by your weather and soil conditions more than folks think. Depending on your climate plant anywhere from 1 1/2 inches for mild winters to up to 4 inches down for the severe winter climates. Mulching, you can rake off in the spring to allow them to come up easier, helps keep them warmer in the winter. I grow mine in upraised beds also a really great boost for them. I have pics of my Purple striped on a scale weighing in at a half pound, started by bulbil in 1 1/2 seasons with an average of 3 1/2 inches across. I had first years with 2 1/2 inches but the soil is unique here due to what I use. It is not available everywhere what I add. So unless you grow my specific variety in my soil conditions and weather, folks just don't know. Why not aspire to ideal conditions? If your beds are right by your home like mine are, they get alot of attention. That seaweed and nettle compost and tea is like liquid gold...do read about it. Wonderful stuff and I make a mean compost on the side too from all the lovely veggies and scraps from my cooking. The German Heirloom Purple Striped garlic I grow form bulbils of varying sizes. First year Garlic grow the small bulbils that are pea sized that Paquebot refers to. The second year ones grow larger bulbils than that and they compare to small cloves! This is all arbitrary to your gardening skills, weather and sometimes luck! Once you are producing bulbs, you can simply dig up your garlic bulbs each year, plant the cloves at your specific time of year in your zone and then eat the rest of them every year. Bulbils are great for a fast large bed of garlic to get started but cloves are faster by one season in my case. If you just leave your Bulbils in for three years, they starve for nutrients and you get small bulbs for your efforts. It is really easy to dig up your garlic to replant. If you see single cells, you get to leave them in the ground anyway. I never would leave them in the ground for three years. It just is not necessary for me and has never been. I had sent 100 of my largest size of bulbils to a gardener in Canada. He reported back to me 100% viability... Well I get that here so I was not surprised. I have sold enough for the past three years to know the high viability of them besides my own tests I have run. Then he was so excited he pre ordered 500 of them. So I guess you will find the viability of bulbils to be different with each variety and each person I guess? I sell thousands every year so I do have direct experience with viability results of bulbils of my specific variety. Elephant Garlic, not a true garlic but in the leek family, can grow to a massive size. They are just wonderful baked....how about harvesting some that are 5 pounds? Where I got my cloves from, that was how big they were! No, I didn't grow these and boy was I happy to get some of the huge cloves from them! When I planted them late in January, I was very surprised to see their massive stalks this Spring. They are very impressive in my modest beds!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 11, 2011 7:26:14 GMT -5
Bulbils are not true seeds as they need to be promptly replanted. If they are dried, they die. I've found the exact opposite to be the case. I harvested tiny bubils from German Extra-Hardy White in July of 2009 and planted them in November of 2010. They sat in a bowl at room temperature for 16 months without a problem. I was amazed! Like an idiot, I planted them all rather than reserving a few to see just how long they'd stay viable. Third type of bulbil isn't much bigger than a grain of wheat. They will produce a round about the size of a pea. When those are planted back, a larger round is produced which divides the third year. That's the case with German Extra-Hardy White. They look like plump grains of barley. Another factor to be figured in is that not every bulbil is going to sprout. The one certain thing that I've found is that the bigger the bulbil, the better chance of survival. I expected almost 100% with an 18-variety rocambole experiment but probably got 90%. Middle size may be 75% while the smallest are 50% or less. It's only in the second year that one can expect close to 100% for any size of rounds or cloves. I got excellent sprouting, it was the winter survival part that was a problem. There was a noticeable reduction in living plants this spring, even so, hundreds survived. Any recommendation on a good variety with large bulbils that'll grow to good size in one season? Thanks!!! ~Dig
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littleminnie
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Post by littleminnie on Jul 27, 2011 20:22:04 GMT -5
I agree. I plant bulbils stored from fall late into spring and they are very dry and preserved. I tried them as pest deterents and of course that didn't work for long. At first the killdeer nest kept pests away there and then when the babies hatched no one guarded the peas. Anyway I wish there was a peeler machine for them. I still think they would be cool pickled. I am starting to fill a basket with them as I harvest and clean the garlic. Below is my Chesnok Red harvest. It is my favorite hardneck. For some reason my Simonetti softneck are dying off after the hardnecks. Simonetti will be harvested tomorrow or Friday.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 28, 2011 1:07:50 GMT -5
My first experiment was with Music about 12 years ago. Laid down a piece of ½" hardware cloth to use as a grid and planted a bulbil every other opening. No fall growth but about 50% showed up the following spring. That was directly into the garden soil. Did have better results with Estonian Red planted at the exact same spacing but in planters with a special starting mix. Got 59 plants from 62 bulbils which were mostly at least 1/8th inch width, slightly larger than many porcelains.
In theory, any rocambole type should have bulbils large enough to produce a divided bulb in one year. The latest experiment to test that proved that it is correct only to a certain point. If a bulb less than an inch wide and with only 4 or 5 tiny cloves is good enough, then it is a success. What threw everything out the window was that nearly every bulbil planted was the same size and the largest off each head. All planted side-by-side in the same plot and yet each of the 18 varieties grew very different plants and very different bulbs. Definitely depended upon the variety rather than type or size of bulbil.
Martin
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Post by Deleted on Jul 28, 2011 20:19:04 GMT -5
My first experiment was with Music about 12 years ago. Laid down a piece of ½" hardware cloth to use as a grid and planted a bulbil every other opening. No fall growth but about 50% showed up the following spring. That was directly into the garden soil. Did have better results with Estonian Red planted at the exact same spacing but in planters with a special starting mix. Got 59 plants from 62 bulbils which were mostly at least 1/8th inch width, slightly larger than many porcelains. In theory, any rocambole type should have bulbils large enough to produce a divided bulb in one year. The latest experiment to test that proved that it is correct only to a certain point. If a bulb less than an inch wide and with only 4 or 5 tiny cloves is good enough, then it is a success. What threw everything out the window was that nearly every bulbil planted was the same size and the largest off each head. All planted side-by-side in the same plot and yet each of the 18 varieties grew very different plants and very different bulbs. Definitely depended upon the variety rather than type or size of bulbil. Martin Thanks Martin!
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littleminnie
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Post by littleminnie on Jul 29, 2011 20:40:17 GMT -5
Here was the Simonetti harvest yesterday. I spent an hour and a half cleaning up the chesnoks, music and purple glazer this morning while I watered. I ended up with 1/2 bushel chesnok and 1 peck music and glazer. Now my thumb hurts from the shears. Still have to trim up the Nootka, Simonetti, Chinese pink and the unmarked ones. I wish I had some help in exchange for some bulbs!
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Post by Deleted on Jul 30, 2011 21:32:14 GMT -5
On the bulbil topic, really the only assurance you can get is that it will take around two seasons to get a nice table size garlic. I am basing this on the variety I grow. If you get great results in one year from a bulbil, that is due to a lot of work, superior soil and conditions. When I harvested my German Purple Striped Hardnecks last year, I really thought I had gotten them all. Well I had some volunteers on the very edges of my upraised beds. I was really surprised, must have missed some bulbils, maybe chopped them into the soil. I was going to rip them out when I noticed the thickness of the stalks. They may not be big, but hey a little garlic bulb by accident is better than tossing them in my compost. I had spaced my garlic carefully this year and these were not crowding any of the others. My garlic is a little late, it has been cool here but they look great. In few weeks they will probably be ready. I checked the size, wonderful. What I have in there now was planted by cloves only and there is enough size difference to know those volunteers are from bulbils. I won't be sorry to harvest my volunteers this year. At least they had the good manners to stay to the edges...LOL
The dry bulbils I have had even sprouted when stored for months, they don't die when they dry at all. I am not sure why someone would think so, they are like a seed in that you dry them before you send them out in the mail. I am already getting advance orders on my Bulbils. They are worth planting for those who want an economical way to grow Garlic. If you want Garlic in one year you know with some certainty that will be a good table size, planting the cloves is the way to accomplish this.
Folks in Canada are not supposed to have cloves mailed but are allowed to get seeds which include bulbils. I have sent these to Germany, Belgium, Russia and other countries. It is all fun and we should all enjoy each others successes and experiences. I love your pics Littleminnie!
There are no bad garlics...just different sizes..yummy!
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