billh
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Post by billh on Aug 15, 2014 10:45:19 GMT -5
I have used pine chip bedding for mulch this year. Anyone want to give me pros and cons? The reason I did this is because of an article on poly fab farms. It claims that pine chips will deteriorate in a year and also helps compost. I've used them on peppers tomatoes and rhubarb, so far no problems I hope.
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Post by paulf on Aug 15, 2014 14:24:07 GMT -5
Any organic mulch is better than no mulch at all. From what I understand, pine mulch will draw nitrogen out of the soil during the decomposition stage, but then the N will be available after it has deteriorated. The benefits outweigh the drawbacks. While I prefer straw, there should be no problem with pine chips especially if they are small chips and can compost easily.
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elliemater
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Post by elliemater on Aug 15, 2014 19:43:54 GMT -5
Any wood mulch will use nitrogen. I sprinkle fertilizer under the mulch when I lay it out. The pine will make the soil acid eventually and you may need to keep up with liming or suchlike. We have no access at all to straw here, so I use these wood mulches. I get the ones for pet bedding because they are in smaller flakes and break down more quickly. And yes, this increases the denitrification; however, I am trying to amend my sandy soil with organic matter at the same time. At the end of that plant's season (3-4 mos) I turn it all into the soil.
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Post by coppice on Aug 16, 2014 18:04:56 GMT -5
Funny thing about this nitrogen stealin' business. Most container gardeners, and all bonsai growers use a significant amount of bark and or pine mulch (granted with some supplemental fertilization) and this nitrogen stealing never takes place.
Could it just be that mycorriza (mushroom families) supply the nitrogen to feed in turn off that carbon bonanza of pine-bark mulch?
Also when ever I've had a tantrum and demanded a citation (or more than one). What was provided was a loop of "cause everybody knows" posts that lead one to another without ever citing any kind of science. Or, direct experience from trials.
When I did a trial and used bark or pine chips as top mulch I never got a different yield. In fact then I mixed the bark or pine direct into soil, I had to have nearly a fifty-fifty mix before yields changed. I'm calling this an urban legend. I can't make my mulch hunt the way this is attributed.
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Post by paulf on Aug 17, 2014 19:27:36 GMT -5
From the University of Washington to the University of Nebraska to Cornell University (http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/factsheets/mulch/mulchland.htm there have been studies that indicate wood chips have a low carbon to Nitrogen ratio and that the microbes that break down wood chip have to utilize nitrogen in the decomposition process. Since the microbes do not contain nitrogen and wood chips have nitrogen in low amounts, the N must be drawn from the surrounding soil to complete the break-down process.
I just looked for a few minutes and found several sources at universities all saying the same thing. Since nitrogen is relatively easy to apply I have never really experienced a lack of N BECAUSE of wood chip mulch being used in my spaces. Soil tests tell me I need more N so it gets applied. Do I believe the pundits when they say wood chip decomposition uses a small amount of N? Yes. Do I look for proof in my gardens through my own trials? Nope, I am too lazy to check it out.
The internet says it is so, so it must be true.
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elliemater
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Post by elliemater on Aug 18, 2014 8:04:47 GMT -5
From the University of Washington to the University of Nebraska to Cornell University (http://www.gardening.cornell.edu/factsheets/mulch/mulchland.htm there have been studies that indicate wood chips have a low carbon to Nitrogen ratio and that the microbes that break down wood chip have to utilize nitrogen in the decomposition process. Since the microbes do not contain nitrogen and wood chips have nitrogen in low amounts, the N must be drawn from the surrounding soil to complete the break-down process. I just looked for a few minutes and found several sources at universities all saying the same thing. Since nitrogen is relatively easy to apply I have never really experienced a lack of N BECAUSE of wood chip mulch being used in my spaces. Soil tests tell me I need more N so it gets applied. Do I believe the pundits when they say wood chip decomposition uses a small amount of N? Yes. Do I look for proof in my gardens through my own trials? Nope, I am too lazy to check it out. The internet says it is so, so it must be true. With my sandy soil and large rainfall, my garden in the ground is perennially nitrogen deficient. So something as minor as wood chips decomposing makes a greater difference in my garden than it is likely to in others.
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elliemater
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Post by elliemater on Aug 18, 2014 8:12:57 GMT -5
Funny thing about this nitrogen stealin' business. Most container gardeners, and all bonsai growers use a significant amount of bark and or pine mulch (granted with some supplemental fertilization) and this nitrogen stealing never takes place. Could it just be that mycorriza (mushroom families) supply the nitrogen to feed in turn off that carbon bonanza of pine-bark mulch? Also when ever I've had a tantrum and demanded a citation (or more than one). What was provided was a loop of "cause everybody knows" posts that lead one to another without ever citing any kind of science. Or, direct experience from trials. When I did a trial and used bark or pine chips as top mulch I never got a different yield. In fact then I mixed the bark or pine direct into soil, I had to have nearly a fifty-fifty mix before yields changed. I'm calling this an urban legend. I can't make my mulch hunt the way this is attributed. Wood chips are being used to remove nitrate and nitrogen from water moving from agricultural watersheds to subsurface drainage. In this way, the fact that decomposing wood breaks down nitrogen is being used to get rid of excess nitrogen that would pollute our waterways. Denitrification. It is indeed a fact and not farmer myth.
I believe that areas which get abundant rainfall and have soil that drains quickly (like mine) do have issues with denitrification when wood chips are used for vegetable crops without additional nitrogen being added. Our rate of wood decomposition is very fast and the termites (abundant here) aid it.
J Environ Qual. 2009 Jun 23;38(4):1664-71. doi: 10.2134/jeq2008.0413. Print 2009 Jul-Aug. Denitrification in wood chip bioreactors at different water flows. Greenan CM1, Moorman TB, Parkin TB, Kaspar TC, Jaynes DB.
Environ Sci Process Impacts. 2013 Aug;15(8):1553-61. doi: 10.1039/c3em00107e. Performance of a vertical subsurface flow (VSF) wetland treatment system using woodchips to treat livestock stormwater. Niu S1, Guerra HB, Chen Y, Park K, Kim Y.
There are more resources for this information. I just don't have more time to spend right now on this.
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Post by paulf on Aug 18, 2014 11:08:35 GMT -5
Another site about wood chips. Most all I have read indicate the benefit outweighs the detriment. Every wood chip user I have read about adds an additional source of N to assist the breakdown of wood chips into compost. This source is often more compost or manure or even chemical nitrogen. We wood chip mulch almost all our flower beds and they (kudos to my wife who is the flower grower) are generally spectacular. Some beds get additional N, some do not. I don't pretend to get involved with the flower growing technique....only the work involved. puyallup.wsu.edu/~Linda%20Cha...ips%202007.pdf
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Post by coppice on Aug 19, 2014 9:25:25 GMT -5
Well, at least we disagree politely.
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Post by paulf on Aug 19, 2014 10:20:51 GMT -5
Actually we don't disagree. I was just trying to answer a question. We have a great source of wood chips in our little village. The local power company uses our brush dump site as a place to deposit wood chips when they chip trees and brush when they trim from power lines, etc. I bring many, many loads home in my Cushman Truckster's dump bed. I rely on a soil test to tell me whether to amend my soils. The last time I expanded my vegetable garden space, three tree stumps were ground down and the chips stayed in the garden as future compost. There is also information that the finer the wood chip the faster it composts. But is sawdust practical for mulch?
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billh
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Post by billh on Aug 19, 2014 16:42:00 GMT -5
soooo...use them woodchips?
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Post by paquebot on Aug 19, 2014 22:13:06 GMT -5
There are no disagreements here, it's failure to differentiate using wood as mulch versus using it in the soil. On top of the soil, the microbes can only draw nitrogen from a thin layer of surface soil. When incorporated into the soil, the nitrogen is drawn from all of the surrounding soil. For those reasons, it explains why decomposition of wood mulch is measured in years while the same wood in compost or soil is weeks or months depending upon particle size.
Use of wood chips as mulch or in the soil are only temporary benefits. The main one comes after they have completely broken down to carbon humus. As such, it will last for centuries to benefit soil structure. Won't have any nutrient value but very valuable in storing them from whatever else is added.
Martin
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