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Post by Gianna on Jul 21, 2019 8:23:51 GMT -5
Do you avoid growing hybrids? if so, why? and if not, why? (I actually had wanted to reply to something Harry Moose had written, but dont remember in which thread it was. )
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Post by paulf on Jul 21, 2019 9:31:12 GMT -5
Most of the flowers and vegetables in our gardens are hybrids. Half the peppers are hybrids and half are old varieties. So far as tomatoes go, all but one are open pollenated. Call them heirlooms, open pollenated or stabilized crosses, whatever you want, they are not the hybrids with unknown or secret parentage. Since I go for flavor in tomatoes, that is why I like what I grow. If there is a hybrid with exceptional taste, it gets a spot just so I can see what the fuss is about. The hybrid varieties of tomato I have grown have for the most part been duds and disease magnets and by most standards not worth the space allotted. The OPs that perform like hybrids don't get a second chance either. With thousands of varieties not yet grown in my gardens, duds go by the wayside.
So far the only hybrid I have really liked has been the SunGold Cherry and I don't like growing cherries much. Very sweet and prolific but for me split badly. Of the 400+ OP tomato varieties I have grown about 10% have been spitters and will not see the dirt in my space. I have a core of 50 varieties I call my favorites that rotate in and out and I reserve five or so spots for new-to-me varieties and one space (maybe) for a hybrid.
I tend to be a tomato snob because my gardening hobby is searching out OP tomatoes just to see what they are. Call it private research or passion or craziness. So the short answer is No, I don't avoid hybrids except in my tomato patch.
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Post by Laura_in_FL on Jul 21, 2019 9:49:06 GMT -5
No, I don't avoid hybrids. I grow a lot of OP vegetables because I enjoy saving and trading seed, and many heirlooms offer great taste. But when a hybrid offers a really important characteristic, such as improved disease resistance, parthenocarpy, or increased productivity, I don't hesitate to grow it. Hybrids still have to flavor, though. For me gardening is a hobby rather than a livelihood, and one of the most rewarding aspects is growing vegetables that taste great. If my vegetables are going to taste like cardboard, I might as well find another hobby and buy all my veggies at the store. EDIT: paulf, if you like the flavor of Sun Gold but not the splitting - and if you're ever willing to try another hybrid cherry - try SunSugar. It almost never splits for me.
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 21, 2019 9:55:31 GMT -5
I grow more hybrids than heirlooms. Big Beef is a very dependable hybrid and I grow it every year. It has superior production and disease resistance. I do not save seeds but I grow a few heirlooms for the taste and I also like to try new varieties that I have heard about.
This year I am trying 2 new hybrids, Brandy Master and Brandy Boy but I am also growing Brandywine and Cherokee Purple which are both heirlooms. So far Cherokee Purple has had the best flavor of any that I have picked.
Many of my other vegetables like corn and asparagus are hybrids too.
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Post by paulf on Jul 21, 2019 10:06:10 GMT -5
I think we have grown SunSugar. I don't keep records for cherries other than that they were planted. Cherries are for my wife and she has had me grow salad sized the past few years. I would go back to Black Cherry if it were for myself.
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 21, 2019 10:23:48 GMT -5
I grew black cherry this year and my husband is raving about it. He likes it better than my sun sugar
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Post by Gianna on Jul 21, 2019 10:31:07 GMT -5
I have two main criteria for re-growing a variety in the garden. 1, that it grows and produces well enough, and 2, that it tastes great. There are so many varieties to choose from, why settle for mediocre flavor? I would prefer for something to be open pollinated because I love saving seed from year to year, but other than that, I don't much care if it's a hybrid or not. I do grow hybrid early girls because they consistently work here, both production and flavor. That they are hybrids is a coincidence. I would rather they be open pollinated because I start many, and give many away - and I always have to make sure I have enough seed for that. But they are easy to find and inexpensive. I already have enough for next year. And right now I'm starting some cuttings for late summer/fall planting. I do think many hybrids, esp commercial, have been selected for traits other than flavor. Disease resistance, appearance, harvest window, keeping and shipping traits, etc. Not only vegetables, but fruits too. As for peppers, this year I'm growing a wider variety than usual. Some are hybrids, but most are OP. I'm also growing several varieties of zucchini. I think these are all pretty much the same producing/tasting, but I only plant purchased seed, either OP or hybrid, because zukes are so promiscuous I dont want to take the time to grow questionable seed. I did just purchase a parthenocarpic variety to try over the winter. Legumes. These I mainly grow my own saved seeds, both beans and peas. edit: I no longer grow cherry tomatoes - they just never get picked...
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Post by paquebot on Jul 21, 2019 10:50:37 GMT -5
With all of my efforts with OP tomatoes, I may sound like a non-hybrid purist. Not so. Beets, broccoli, cabbage, carrots, and peppers are both ways. One is basically the industry standard. Is there a better broccoli than Packman?
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by hairymooseknuckles on Jul 21, 2019 11:12:41 GMT -5
My main purpose in gardening is saving seeds. If I get something good to eat, it's a win-win. I've always tried to grow varieties that have been in someone's family, old varieties, unique varieties, rare varieties, etc. I've traded seeds with many people, been gifted many seeds, and given away many seeds. This year I'm growing a few Okra seeds that Marie gave me from her family. I treasure growing things of this nature. I'm a seed saver/collector. I love growing tomatoes! I really, really love growing cherry tomatoes! Last year spike gave me a TON of tomatoes and so did september. I'm not sure whose package included the Hawaii Yellow Cherry, but it was just awesome! It was very similar to a tomato I got from Ted Maiden years ago called Mini Gold except a little smaller in size. Speaking of Ted, thank goodness he gave me Mini Gold because something happened and he lost all his seed for it. I sent him a good sized sample and now he has it once more. That's what makes seed saving/collecting so special to me.
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 21, 2019 12:38:39 GMT -5
hairymooseknuckles, I also enjoy growing seeds that were sent to me by other people and I think about them when I look at the plants.Little Lucy okra will always be "the seeds that hairymooseknuckles, sent me from Texas. I am also growing those red and white beans that you sent me and I saved seeds last year. My Bok choy has been from pepperhead212 although I will need to buy seeds for next year since I have grown all of the ones that he sent me and I don't save seed. It's a hybrid.
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Post by Gianna on Jul 21, 2019 13:49:07 GMT -5
My main purpose in gardening is saving seeds. Cool. I dont think I've know anyone for whom that is the main goal. As a foodie, my main purpose for gardening is to get 'food' - better than can be bought. And of course, fun.
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Post by carolyn on Jul 21, 2019 13:56:15 GMT -5
I have two main criteria for re-growing a variety in the garden. 1, that it grows and produces well enough, and 2, that it tastes great. There are so many varieties to choose from, why settle for mediocre flavor? I would prefer for something to be open pollinated because I love saving seed from year to year, but other than that, I don't much care if it's a hybrid or not. I do grow hybrid early girls because they consistently work here, both production and flavor. That they are hybrids is a coincidence. I would rather they be open pollinated because I start many, and give many away - and I always have to make sure I have enough seed for that. But they are easy to find and inexpensive. I already have enough for next year. And right now I'm starting some cuttings for late summer/fall planting. I do think many hybrids, esp commercial, have been selected for traits other than flavor. Disease resistance, appearance, harvest window, keeping and shipping traits, etc. Not only vegetables, but fruits too. As for peppers, this year I'm growing a wider variety than usual. Some are hybrids, but most are OP. I'm also growing several varieties of zucchini. I think these are all pretty much the same producing/tasting, but I only plant purchased seed, either OP or hybrid, because zukes are so promiscuous I dont want to take the time to grow questionable seed. I did just purchase a parthenocarpic variety to try over the winter. ........ yes yes yes. this is pretty much my thoughts too. flavor and production.
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Post by pepperhead212 on Jul 21, 2019 14:10:36 GMT -5
I grow a lot of hybrids. With tomatoes, most of the OP varieties are more prone to diseases, and, despite "heirlooms" supposedly having the best flavors, in many, if not most, of my tomato tastings, they did not come out on top. Also, production is almost always much lower. Most of my peppers are not hybrids, though one I have grown since the 80s is Superchili, which is my easiest pepper every year, as well as earliest to ripen. Also good green, red, and dried - something not always found in peppers. And three favorite Thai peppers that I used to buy from Pinetree, were definitely hybrids, as when they dropped off the market, I tried saving the seeds, and they were definitely different, and I tried to stabilize them, and didn't succeed, in 5 or 6 years. Eggplants I have tried mostly OPs of, but the Ichiban and Neon hybrids are two that I have grown every year since the 80s for the Ichiban, and maybe the early 90s, for the Neon. The Ichiban is the earliest every year, and has great flavor; only drawback is that it doesn't like heat, though EPs come back much faster than tomatoes, after dropping blossoming. Neon is one of the most productive, and fairly heat resistant. Hari - the only green one that I have liked, is listed as hybrid, but I think that it might be one of those listed as a hybrid, to keep us from saving seeds! (did that seem to be a hybrid when you saved the seeds Laura_in_FL?). A lot of Asian greens are hyprids, and definitely seem to grow better. No big deal, since I don't dave seeds from those. Those hybrid Polaris butternuts I have been growing for a long time, as they have been the best producers, as well as the longest storing butternuts I have ever grown, and I have tried a lot, since moschata squash are all I can grow! County Fair hybrid cucumber is the only one I have grown through the years - others eventually get bacterial wilt every time. I have little leaf this year, which is also resistant, supposedly. However, not producing well - maybe the heat.
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Post by octave1 on Jul 21, 2019 14:17:17 GMT -5
I grew black cherry this year and my husband is raving about it. He likes it better than my sun sugar Black Cherry is better. I am growing Sunsugar and, given the great reviews, I am a bit disappointed. It's good but not spectacular.
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Post by mgulfcoastguy on Jul 21, 2019 14:21:03 GMT -5
Mostly open pollinated but I am not opposed to hybrids if they have great taste, good production, and most importantly if I can readily purchase the seeds year in and year out. For instance Sun Gold tomatoes scores all three, Dona tomatoes did for a few years then they became unobtanium. The same with Kuta squash. All three had multi year starring roles in my garden.
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Post by pepperhead212 on Jul 21, 2019 14:51:15 GMT -5
I grew black cherry this year and my husband is raving about it. He likes it better than my sun sugar Black Cherry is better. I am growing Sunsugar and, given the great reviews, I am a bit disappointed. It's good but not spectacular. I used to grow black cherries, and they were delicious, with a really good tomato flavor, without all the sweetness of sunsugar - good for other things. However, the reason I stopped growing them was that they were not a variety that could be picked half ripe, or barely ripe, as most I have grown, as while sitting on the counter to ripen, they ended up getting soft spots - I'd have to pick them totally ripe, and use immediately. I tried the seeds from several sources, and same problem occurred. I have also had this happen with other black varieties - the Vernisage is doing that now. Anybody else notice this?
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 21, 2019 15:44:52 GMT -5
they were not a variety that could be picked half ripe, or barely ripe, as most I have grown, as while sitting on the counter to ripen, they ended up getting soft spots I have not noticed that but I will check it out. I have only picked 4 or 5 of them so far and they were ripe.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 21, 2019 16:01:07 GMT -5
Never saw any problem with Black Cherry. Grew it 3 years in a row so there should have been at least one factor if it were weather. Could also be the particular strain. A few of us grew it a year before it was apparently officially released and they were two different. As far as I know, Fedco was the first company to have the original. No idea where everything went wrong but it did.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Laura_in_FL on Jul 21, 2019 16:50:28 GMT -5
I grew black cherry this year and my husband is raving about it. He likes it better than my sun sugar Black Cherry is better. I am growing Sunsugar and, given the great reviews, I am a bit disappointed. It's good but not spectacular. I wonder whether this is another climate/growing conditions thing. I tried Black Cherry, using seed from someone who raved about it. The plant and fruit looked exactly like it should, so if the seed was crossed, it wasn't visibly apparent. Yet, given the great reviews, I was disappointed. It was just okay. I actually cut the plant down early because I wasn't eating the fruits and it was crowding its tastier neighbors. Yeah, I know...saying Black Cherry is just okay is practically heresy on many tomato websites, but DH and my in-laws had the same opinion. EDIT: I did try them at various stages of ripeness, and since there were so many I was able to let some get fully ripe on the plant. It didn't help.
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Post by carolyn on Jul 22, 2019 6:45:33 GMT -5
Black Cherry is better. I am growing Sunsugar and, given the great reviews, I am a bit disappointed. It's good but not spectacular. I wonder whether this is another climate/growing conditions thing. I tried Black Cherry, using seed from someone who raved about it. The plant and fruit looked exactly like it should, so if the seed was crossed, it wasn't visibly apparent. Yet, given the great reviews, I was disappointed. It was just okay. I actually cut the plant down early because I wasn't eating the fruits and it was crowding its tastier neighbors. Yeah, I know...saying Black Cherry is just okay is practically heresy on many tomato websites, but DH and my in-laws had the same opinion. EDIT: I did try them at various stages of ripeness, and since there were so many I was able to let some get fully ripe on the plant. It didn't help. I have grown black cherry also and was less than impressed too. maybe its a "gene" thing like cilantro. it was wet and juicy but not particularly flavorful.
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Post by hairymooseknuckles on Jul 22, 2019 8:16:34 GMT -5
I don't like the taste of most tomatoes when they are raw. BUT...There are exactions....I like SOME Cherry tomatoes raw. Go figure.
Black Cherry, Mini Gold, Hawaii Yellow Cherry and my absolute favorite is Sun Gold.
The first year I grew Black Cherry it was wonderful. I remember standing out in the garden very sad because we had a freeze coming that night. The following year I grew it and it was just ok. I still get years when it's great and some years the flavor seems a little off. I've never had a year where it was a spitter though.
If my health ever improves to the point I can have a big garden again, I'm going to do a year of all cherry tomatoes. It will be epic.
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Post by paulf on Jul 22, 2019 9:10:11 GMT -5
As far as I know, Fedco was the first company to have the original. Black Cherry was developed by the late Vince Sapp, husband of Linda Sapp, who owns Tomato Growers Supply , from a natural cross. Released in 2003. The exact parentage of Black Cherry has not been shared. I also received Black Cherry seeds before it was officially released. In later years I purchased seeds from a source other than TGS and they were so similar I could not tell the difference. Perhaps like other varieties as they are sold or offered by other sellers there has been another cross not intended. I am still working from a TGS purchase. Last grow-out for me was three years ago. Time to freshen up BC seeds, I guess
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Post by paquebot on Jul 22, 2019 15:04:09 GMT -5
Re wrong Black Cherry, there was a discussion on IDig with pictures of a wide variety of colors. Most differed with or without stripes in the background. There was thought that Vince's record-keeping failed at the end and Linda may have released the wrong seeds. I never grew the one from TGS so could not compare the two. The route of those which Fedco offered were Vince to me to a contract grower. As my seed grew older, always worried about sharing as they are the tiniest that I've ever seen from fruit that size. Little buggers always grow!
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by bestofour on Jul 25, 2019 20:52:27 GMT -5
brownrexx, Cherokee Purple is my favorite tomato and I'm with you about the Little Lucy. That just may be the easiest okra too grow and it's so good.
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Post by hairymooseknuckles on Jul 25, 2019 21:27:53 GMT -5
brownrexx , Cherokee Purple is my favorite tomato and I'm with you about the Little Lucy. That just may be the easiest okra too grow and it's so good. I like Cherokee Purple too. Funny story. I took some to my Sister and her boyfriend had only seen red tomatoes. He looked at the CP and thought they were starting to rot. LAUGHING!!!!
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Post by paulf on Jul 26, 2019 11:06:58 GMT -5
My brother-in-law only raised those boring, round, red hardware store tomatoes. I gave him several plants for his garden and he threw out all the CP telling me they rotted on the vine and kept turning black. I brought him one sliced up to try. He reluctantly ate it and said for a rotten tomato it was pretty good. That has been 15 years ago and there are still people out there that only believe round red is a tomato.
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 26, 2019 17:15:45 GMT -5
I took some Black Cherry tomatoes to the assisted living facility last year and one lady put them on her windowsill and said that "they never turned red!"
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Post by mgulfcoastguy on Jul 26, 2019 17:28:01 GMT -5
My brother-in-law only raised those boring, round, red hardware store tomatoes. I gave him several plants for his garden and he threw out all the CP telling me they rotted on the vine and kept turning black. I brought him one sliced up to try. He reluctantly ate it and said for a rotten tomato it was pretty good. That has been 15 years ago and there are still people out there that only believe round red is a tomato. The same thing happened when I gave CP plants to my boss.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 26, 2019 20:18:16 GMT -5
I once had a catalog that didn't have any hybrids in it. It was Buckbee's from 1937. (It's now in the Jung's collection.) No black or green tomatoes and only a couple yellow. All were round and I don't remember any Roma shape.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by octave1 on Jul 26, 2019 20:39:36 GMT -5
paquebot,that is pretty much true for the old Victory seed catalog. Even the more recent ones had mostly round red tomatoes, many of which were Livingstone's.
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