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Post by Gianna on Jul 23, 2019 11:31:18 GMT -5
Are you currently mulching your garden or did you mulch earlier in the season. If so, with what? And any other interesting facts about your process.
I got a load of sifted municipal green waste delivered about a week ago. It's just beautiful! The sifted stuff (7 to 10 yrds) costs about $90 divided between delivery cost, and sifting charge. And...Because we have a limited water supply for our area, our water district gives us a rebate on two loads of this mulch each year. Such a deal!
The past few days this mulch pile has been heating up - it's moist - and has been around 155*F or so. And I'm now spreading it around. First was to add a layer on top of previous mulch in the pepper bed, then arouond some tomatoes, and then over a bed that will hold some cabbages. I water with soaker hoses, so putting the mulch on top of these works well.
The mulch itself is still very fluffy, easy to spread, and a joy to work with... and should remain that way until the first rain in Oct/Nov/or Dec. (?)
I want to put down some fabric cloth in the pathways and covered with mulch, but sort of don't like the idea - I like the contact between the mulch and the soil and the worm/microbe action... but it is the pathways, not the beds... The stuff is breathable, unlike solid plastic, but... It would prevent weeds come the rains. Might just do it.
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Post by paquebot on Jul 23, 2019 16:17:03 GMT -5
Your city mulch sounds more like unfinished compost. Right now it is high in nitrogen and I would not use it too close to tomatoes and peppers. Not bad price at around $10 per yard. When we could get sifted finished compost, it was $10 for pickup load.
I don't mulch much when things are growing as usually there isn't much available. I do save bags of leaves from the fall and mulch the potatoes heavy right after planting. Last fall, covered the main garden areas with several inches of shredded leaves. When planting time came this spring, only tilled where the rows were to be. A month into summer, they are slowly breaking down but still effective in deterring weeds. Plan to do the same this fall.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by brownrexx on Jul 23, 2019 17:16:34 GMT -5
I roto till the garden in the Fall and then cover it with a thick layer of straw. This acts to insulate the soil and keep it warmer longer into the winter. This allows the earthworms to stay closer to the surface longer and work on eating everything that I have tilled under. As the soil becomes cold they burrow deeper into the soil.
In the Spring I just pull the mulch back where I want rows or plants and this becomes my summer mulch. Then it gets tilled under in the Fall. I apply compost to the asparagus bed in the Fall after I cut down the dead fronds.
I add grass clippings to my garden as mulch during the summer to areas where the straw has gotten thin. I also use grass clippings around the edges of the garden to prevent weeds.
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Post by Gianna on Jul 23, 2019 18:17:47 GMT -5
Your city mulch sounds more like unfinished compost. Right now it is high in nitrogen and I would not use it too close to tomatoes and peppers. Not bad price at around $10 per yard. When we could get sifted finished compost, it was $10 for pickup load. This stuff is like unfinished compost. Years ago they were going to put in a local composting facility for green waste, and purchased a very expensive sifting machine to finish the compost before selling it back to us. But they ran out of funds, or someone changed their mind, and the close-by compost facility was not completed. But they still have the sifter and use it for the non-composted ground green waste. I think it's great stuff just like that. In the end a composting facility was built, but in the next valley. They get waste from grocery stores, etc, but there is no way for locals to get any of that finished compost. We used to be able to get a double rig (egads) of mushroom compost delivered from the next city, but the mushroom place went out of business. I never ordered any of that - just too much, and it smelled. That was only $100 - not bad for the distance and the amount. A friend used to get that for their garden and was happy with it. I got a small amount from them and used it in remixing my potting mix. I think it's OK to use around the peppers and tomatoes. Since we dont get rain in summer, not much gets leached out of it and into the soil. If it gets moist in contact with the hoses, the N will help with decomposition.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 21, 2019 19:47:18 GMT -5
I want to put down some fabric cloth in the pathways and covered with mulch, but sort of don't like the idea - I like the contact between the mulch and the soil and the worm/microbe action... but it is the pathways, not the beds... The stuff is breathable, unlike solid plastic, but... It would prevent weeds come the rains. Might just do it. I decided that in the front garden, where there are now 4 parallel beds, I am covering the paths in between with the woven black fabric. It's medium weight, has UV treatment. And I'm covering that with a couple inches of mulch. I dont mind the weeds coming up in the beds, but along the paths just seems like a thankless job. I'm about 70% done with that, and am looking forward to a weed reduced winter. As I was just out there spreading mulch, I came up with a great idea that will solve a problem right along the house where there are pots, and smaller rocks, and brick pathway, and some other 'stuff'. That area is about 7 feet wide and included a path that leads to the side of the house. It used to look nice, but is now very dry and declined. I just decided that I should clear and flatten that area as much as possible, cover it all with the black fabric, and cover that with more mulch. That should look OK. Not great, but much better. Not aesthetic, but sometimes functional is good enough. I have so many outside jobs I want to do, I doubt that area would be effectively dealt with before the rains that would cause the weeds to grow yet again between all the cracks. And when the time comes to do it better, the underlying fabric can just be pulled up, and the decomposing mulch on top be used as compost. I would use two parallel lengths of the 4 ft wide fabric, and be able to overlap by a foot. Very pleased with this idea. Now to find the time do the work before mid Oct.
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Post by paulf on Aug 21, 2019 21:54:56 GMT -5
The entire garden gets a couple layers of newspaper and the 6-8 inches of clean straw. This is all done before anything gets planted in the spring. The mulch gets pulled back for planting and replaced. This keeps the weeds down, keeps the moisture in and the summer temperatures down. After the growing season it all gets tilled under and adds to the organics. Simple, easy and works for me.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 21, 2019 22:36:39 GMT -5
In the past, only the potatoes were heavily mulched in the spring. This was as shredded leaves and applied 5 or 6 inches thick between the row. By harvest time, most would be gone via nightcrawlers. Worms vanished last year after gypsy moth spraying. Turned out better in the end as a lot of the leaves were still there when the potatoes were dug.
The rest of the gardens were going to be something different but still shredded leaves. Just too much good material available from several sources. Virtually everything was covered by up to 3" of shredded leaves, mostly oak. That was way too much to till in unless virtually saturaated with nitrogen. A Pauk does with straw, just pulled back enough to run the Mantis through. Even after 8" more than normal rainfall, there is still some left. Plans are to do the same this fall.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by bestofour on Aug 21, 2019 23:27:09 GMT -5
I have oak leaves. Wonder if I mulch them up really good if I can put a heavy layer on the garden for the winter. I've heard oak leaves don't work for a lot of vegetables.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 22, 2019 0:10:16 GMT -5
I have never beard of any vegetable that would not like oak leaves. Believe it or not, oak leaves have more nitrogen than horse manure. We have one park of the city known as Royal Oaks. It was originally an oak savanna and many of the oaks are still there. All large lots and big homes so most have a bagging rider mower. There is one home where I have gotten most of their leaves since 2006. It is like getting lots of free horse manure without the smell.
But, it is best to shred them before applying them as mulch. In the forest, leaves from this year will fall on those from last year which have yet to break down. There will be 5 or 6 years of leaves that are still recognizable. They are like an egg. As long as the shell isn't cracked, what's inside is going last a long time. Crack the shell and egg quickly rots. Same applies to an oak leaf.
Although I now bring home only oak leaves already shredded, I have also snatched whole leaves. Present mower is a muolcher-bagger so I just spread the leaves on the back lawn and run over them several times without the bag. Then put the bag on and suck them up. Those are really chewed fine and just for the compost tumbler. If used as mulch, just need to run over them once. Just figure a way to "break the shell" and you have super mulch AND fertilizer.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by brownrexx on Aug 22, 2019 7:57:33 GMT -5
The entire garden gets a couple layers of newspaper and the 6-8 inches of clean straw. This is all done before anything gets planted in the spring. The mulch gets pulled back for planting and replaced. This keeps the weeds down, keeps the moisture in and the summer temperatures down. After the growing season it all gets tilled under and adds to the organics. Simple, easy and works for me. I do the same thing but without the newspaper. I apply the mulch in the Fall after tilling. bestofour, I have mulched with shredded leaves in the past and it worked well and added a lot of organic material to the garden. I shredded them with my mower and blew them onto the garden. I would not recommend using whole leaves because they mat together and exclude water.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 22, 2019 8:29:55 GMT -5
We dont have the large oak leaves here. We do have the smaller live oak leaves which are great to gather and pile into the garden, but you have to go out looking for them. They dont have to be shredded, nor do they blow around much.
Once when I was raking leaves beneath a tree in a public area, someone called the police. They were very nice of course, but did think what I was doing was a bit ...eccentric, lol. When I forage for organic matter in a public area, I always wear a nice piece of jewelry so if anyone questions me, they know I'm not homeless and doing something too odd (well, this would be odd for most people). With home delivery of screened municipal mulch, I dont need to do that any more to get adequate, clean organic matter.
Unfortunately the only leaves we used to be able to get in quantity were liquidambers, which make good street trees in residential areas. In the old days, it was possible to pick up bags of leaves left by the curb (hoping there were only leaves inside) but these days with separate green waste cans, people just dump them in those large containers. One also could go rake them up in the streets below, and I did that years ago, but now I just mainly use the free municipal mulch which did not exist back then.
If a bed isnt being used regardless of time of the year, I prefer to keep it covered with mulch. Here deep mulch is used as much to keep moisture in, especially when the soil is still damp early in the year. If it adds to the soil via natural action, all the better. We have not had any rain for about 4 months, and likely wont get any for another 2 - this is our normal. So our strategies are different. Except for areas that have been irrigated, everything is bone dry.
Unless it's a cover crop, if I'm growing something in a bed that requires irrigation (that's almost everything in the summer) I'll lay soaker hoses and then add thick mulch on top. This helps keeps both the soil moist, and the bottom of the mulch layer for decomposition. Works well.
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Post by bestofour on Aug 22, 2019 8:57:03 GMT -5
brownrexx, have you used oak leaves? I've read conflicting articles about them being a growth inhibitor. Gianna, Wish I could give you some leaves. We have tons and tons.
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Post by brownrexx on Aug 22, 2019 9:02:21 GMT -5
bestofour, I have never used plain oak leaves. The one year that I put out the sign for "Bagged Leaves Wanted" at the end of my driveway I got 82 bags of leaves dropped off. They seemed to be mostly maple with some oak mixed in and I shredded them all into a big pile. I mixed too many into the garden with the tiller that year and my pepper seedlings turned yellow due to lack of nitrogen. This will not be a problem when used as mulch. I would probably do some Googling on the topic of oak leaves and see what Universities and Extension services have to say. I just don't know for sure.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 22, 2019 9:09:23 GMT -5
There are drawbacks to using whole newspapers for any purpose in a garden. Main one is that it become a hotel for slugs and pill bugs. They'll find their way under it even if a layer of something else over it. It is also almost pure carbon and uses up soil nitrogen if buried.
Straw is another with a number of cons. Same thing as newspaper for insects plus potential vole hotel. As it breaks down, it is not a problem if left on top of the soil. There's a good reason why straw has been burned in the fields for centuries. It's not welcome underground. With newspaper, there are a lot of living organisms that will consume it and break it down. That is not the case with straw. Only specific bacteria will handle it and they are fueled with nitrogen. Let it break down to humus on top, no problem. Break down in the soil, potential problem.
After saying all that, I do have two bales of clean wheat straw on hand. Did have 3 but chewed one of them into tiny golden bits to be added to the tumbler when I ran out of leaves. Works well to get the proper C:N ratio and no problem for the soil when it is finished
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 22, 2019 9:21:53 GMT -5
Gianna, Wish I could give you some leaves. We have tons and tons. That is so very kind of you - but the postage would be too great. I'm not sure anymore I'd want to deal with the larger leaves that require another work step before using (shredding). I certainly would if it was the only thing available and if they were growing in the yard. Years ago when I was younger, I enjoyed seeking out and bringing home organic matter to improve the soil. But I've come to really love our city mulch. I even love seeing the pile of it sitting on the driveway. For gardening, it's been a real boon. It makes good compost and mulch, it's free (except for minimal delivery charge), it's clean, between ordering and delivery, it's only a scant few days. What more could someone want? Winning the lottery I suppose, ...but I'd still be ordering the mulch.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 22, 2019 9:27:55 GMT -5
brownrexx, have you used oak leaves? I've read conflicting articles about them being a growth inhibitor. I have never heard of that and generally the opposite is true. The NPK value of oak leaves is .8-.35-.15. Horse manure, which we all love,is .7-.3-.6. Main difference is that oak leaves are acidic while horse manure is alkaline. Nearly all vegetables do best in acidic soil so according to the facts, oak leaves are better than horse manure. Scratch your heads on that for awhile! Martin The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 22, 2019 11:15:26 GMT -5
have you used oak leaves? I've read conflicting articles about them being a growth inhibitor. I dont know about oak leaves, but there can be a difference in potential activity between leaves still alive on a tree, vs leaves that have fallen. In some cases the living leaves of plants can have an inhibitory affect on plants growing beneath them. Allellopathy. This is more common in dry environments and is a natural mechanism for reducing competition for water and minerals by plants growing beneath. Some of our western scrub oaks can inhibit growth of things beneath them, more-so than just the cast shade. But that does not mean that leaves that have fallen will have the same effects. For example, Eucalyptus has very strong inhibitory affects when alive. Decades ago Eucs were planted as a potential timber source in parts of Cali. You can walk in a massive forest of them and there will be literally nothing growing on the forest floor because of the strong allellopathic effect. Yet when Eucalyptus is chipped/shredded and used as mulch, it has been found that it does not exhibit the same inhibitory affect. Which is good because our city mulch has lots of ground Euc in it, as well as native live oak leaves. Probably too much information... Some of these possibly negative organic (in the 'living organism' sense) mechanisms likely depend on how much moisture/leaching you get. If it were me, I'd use the leaves and see what happens. One size does not fit all. Incorporating more organic matter is generally better than too little. Unless there is too much, as happened for BrownRexx.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 22, 2019 12:25:45 GMT -5
I mixed too many into the garden with the tiller that year and my pepper seedlings turned yellow due to lack of nitrogen. This will not be a problem when used as mulch. That, too, can be easily overcome organically. Before tilling the leaves in, spread Milorganite 5-2-0 or similar over them. That's the cheapest organic nitrogen that is available around here and works great for this purpose. That was my normal system when only spreading an inch or so of shredded leaves. That was when everything was tilled in. For this year, decided that leaving it as a mulch was more importaant than mixing into the soil. Thus fertilizer was only added where the rows were. Martin The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Hensaplenty on Aug 22, 2019 12:46:30 GMT -5
I do "no till" gardening and use wood chips to mulch my entire gardens. I get them free from a local tree company. My in ground gardens are all new this year since we moved here last summer, but the technique is not new for me. My two raised beds are covered with wood chips too.
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Post by bestofour on Aug 22, 2019 20:31:55 GMT -5
Hensaplenty, interesting. Never known anyone to use all wood chips.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 22, 2019 20:44:05 GMT -5
Hensaplenty , interesting. Never known anyone to use all wood chips. I believe using wood chips is the technique used by the Back to Eden people, they are quite religiously oriented if that appeals. There are many videos on YouTube that you might enjoy but I havent watched them. Search for 'Back to Eden gardening' I prefer using smaller particles than chips so they'll break down faster. But many people seem to have had good results using just chips, like Hensaplenty
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Post by paquebot on Aug 22, 2019 20:54:36 GMT -5
Using all wood chips is only OK when they remain on the surface to slowly break down there. There is no loss of soil nitrogen and decomposition is slow. Trouble begin when they are tilled in. Then plants suffer from lack of available nitrogen.
I was involved with a large community garden complex for 10 years and saw everything possible that was bad. Believe it or not, one gardener covered his plot with wood furnace pellets. He didn't come back next year and that plot was virtually worthless for 2 years.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 23, 2019 7:30:43 GMT -5
There is one important fact to know about wood. A ton, 2,000 pounds, contains an average of 2.2 pounds of NPK nutrients. Most of that is potassium. 200 pounds of oak leaves would contain 2.6 of NPK.
So often I have heard of someone finding an old sawmill pile which had broken down to the best-looking soil that they have ever seen. I then ask what was growing in it and the answer is nothing. After fungi got done with it, neither will anything else. It''s essentially coal in a primitive form.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Hensaplenty on Aug 23, 2019 13:33:39 GMT -5
Gianna, Yes, I use the Back to Eden technique. Been doing it about 7 years. I have tilled, used raised beds, and containers, and they all work but the wood chip method works best for me. I don't use commercial "mulch" but the tree grindings that are basically branches and leaves. It's a good mix of green and brown and most tree cutters want to get rid of it. paquebot, is also correct, that you never mix the chips with the soil. It is a cover that aids in keeping moisture levels more even, and MUCH less weeds. The chips break down over time and creates awesome compost/new soil that is so much better than the red clay we have in the south. Wood chips are an amazing source of minerals as well; another plus for our southern acidic soils. It's a long term mindset as well, because the longer you do it the better the soil gets. It attracts earthworms like crazy and the soil does not compact. The only problem I've had is pill bugs which are good for the break down of the chips, but they act like cutworms on new seedlings. Solution is just to spread the chips out of the way for seed planting. After seedlings get a few inches high, spread chips back around the plant. Charles Dowding is another gardener that uses the layering method/no till. He makes all his own compost. Very interesing videos.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 23, 2019 13:53:15 GMT -5
Hensaplenty, what the wood breaks down to is humus which is carbon. Great thing is that it lasts forever. Only thing that can remove it is water and wind. It retains moisture, minerals, and nutrients. It's the same stuff that it takes a thousand years for a forest to produce an inch. I suspect that there's a formula for how much raw material is required but I haven't bothered to find it. Back to Eden faction are merely doing what forests have done in millions of years. They just don't wish to take the time to do it naturally, nor do I. Martin The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 23, 2019 14:23:21 GMT -5
Gianna, Yes, I use the Back to Eden technique. Been doing it about 7 years. I have tilled, used raised beds, and containers, and they all work but the wood chip method works best for me. I don't use commercial "mulch" but the tree grindings that are basically branches and leaves. It's a good mix of green and brown and most tree cutters want to get rid of it. I've been doing 'hard core' no till for about 3 years, and before that I had stopped tilling but for a few years still would 'fluff' using a hand fork - I suppose similar to using a broadfork. I really dont remember when I stopped turning the soil over. But I used to think it was necessary to work the organic matter into the soil since that is what one has always heard. But for my garden and more recently others, it's proven to not be necessary. I dont use woodchips, but I have. Not on the beds but in pathways. The past few years with our severe drought, everyone was wanting to get chips for their yards. It is much easier here to get the free municipal mulch delivered, and it's got smaller particle size which I prefer. I now try to blanket everythng that isnt moving with it. Our local stuff is high quality compared to what might be feared coming out of a large city - which we are not. Charles Dowding is another gardener that uses the layering method/no till. He makes all his own compost. Very interesing videos. Coincidentally I was watching some of his videos this morning. I've seen many of his, and like him too. I also enjoy the no till market gardeners such as the Kaisers from Singing Frog Farms in N. Cali and Richard Perkins, Sweden, Ridgedale Regenerative Farm. The later deals also with farm animals. Some of these guys I've learned a lot from, and respect their shared experiences. Over the years I've also enjoyed watching a lot of the no till techniques of farmers in the US. Not all of them of course - anyone can talk or make a video.
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Post by Hensaplenty on Aug 23, 2019 14:29:29 GMT -5
Yes, it's a copying of what we see in nature. I don't think any of us have thousands of years to wait on it naturally. If you live in a rainy area, the chips break down pretty quickly.
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Post by Gianna on Aug 23, 2019 14:43:36 GMT -5
If you live in a rainy area, the chips break down pretty quickly. LOL, that's not here! I have a friend who uses chips in her paths, mostly live oak from her own trees. She also waters more than I do. When those break down, they are just lovely. In my yard however, there are still some whole Eucalyptus chips in a front slope-y part of the yard that are from over 20 years ago when a tree was removed and chipped.
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dirtguy50
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Post by dirtguy50 on Aug 23, 2019 18:19:23 GMT -5
We have been doing the wood chips for around 6 years now and I love it. No tilling or turning the soil and have an excellent productive garden every year. It is too simple for most folks to believe how well it works. The most misunderstood part of using wood chips is using ramial wood chips which are mostly chipped needles and leaves from tree branches that preferable have composted for awhile. These are not chipped logs that don't contain at least 80% green material. I am not saying anything negative about folks that like to till if that is their preference. I just don't till anymore.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 23, 2019 20:14:09 GMT -5
If there is a good base that is light/loose enough to permit no till to 8" deep, wood mulch works great. Just as in a forest, it breaks down slowly and may outlast the gardener. If green wood is included, won't last as long but will serve as a base for another layer.
Interesting how some view the use of wood chips in official status. The nearest two large community garden complexes have exact opposite rules. One has many yards brought in and must be used at least 3 or 4 inches deep in the aisles. The whole thing is plowed in the fall so it ends up in the soil. The other forbids use of any form of wood chip mulch anywhere.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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