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Post by ladymarmalade on Aug 29, 2020 16:49:40 GMT -5
At least partly.
I've had very little time to garden this year (thanks covid for making me essential), so it's kind of been a survival of the fittest situation for my veggies. I've been a huge fan of raised beds for years for many reasons. But, this year, I planted a few more things in the ground than I have in years past. I've always been pleased with peppers planted in raised beds or buckets, but this year! This year my pepper plants are about five feet tall and insanely healthy! Fruit set is not great this year because we had scorching high heat the weeks of peak blossoming, but I am pleased with the harvest to come.
Everything in ground is doing SO much better this year, and while I'm sure part of it is because it's also been quite dry and the raised beds just aren't retaining moisture. But my in-ground garden soil is only in its second year of cultivation- we haven't done a ton of ammendments yet. For it to be doing SO much better than the raised beds, I have to pause and think about moving at least some of my garden back to the ground.
Curious if anyone else has gone back and forth and prefers one over the other? I've always gardened in raised beds except for the community garden and that had it's own extreme set of issues.
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Post by pepperhead212 on Aug 29, 2020 17:25:33 GMT -5
You are lucky to have some really good soil there, ladymarmalade! Normally, it takes a while to build up the soil like that. You'll have to keep adding to them, and the same with the raised beds; not sure what you put in the raised beds, but maybe you should get a soil test, and see what's missing.
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Post by brownrexx on Aug 29, 2020 18:09:36 GMT -5
I have never used raised beds but I think that I do have really good soil to start with in my area. I add organic material every year and roto till it under in the Fall and I think that this keeps my soil loose and productive. I always thought that if I were to go with a smaller garden that I would make raised beds just because it would probably be easier to weed but I can see how they may dry out faster.
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Post by bestofour on Aug 29, 2020 19:24:32 GMT -5
I moved to raised beds because we were in a drought for 7 years and I couldn't make enough compost to cover the large inground garden I'd always had and was worried the well would dry up if I watered (we now have 2 wells but if you've ever lived through a drought you never get over it). I also started planting squash in straw bales because it seemed the drought brought a horror story amount of squash bugs and I figured if the plants were off the ground I'd stand a fighting chance because I could see things better. When it did finally start raining it rained a lot and I was the only person around who had any vegetables because the inground growers couldn't even get in their gardens for the mud. This happened 2 seasons in a row and I was oh so happy I had changed and felt sorry for the growers who sell at the farmers market. Lately, and I'm not sure why, I've gone back to planting a few crops in the ground; potatoes, black eyed peas and cucumbers to be specific. I'm seriously thinking of planting tomatoes in the ground next season, again, not sure why. Again this year we've had gallons of rain which has caused my raised beds a problem or two but has really caused the inground growers at the market a problem.
In a nutshell, I feel like I have more control with raised beds.
PS We just naturally have really good soil. I have to amend the raised beds.
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Post by paulf on Aug 30, 2020 9:17:47 GMT -5
Some good suggestions have been given concerning raised beds. Comparing our raised beds to the in-ground gardening we do many of the same practices for both sets of soils; adding organics, fertilization, weed control (hoeing and pulling) and moisture control. Since our raised bed is really raised, a three foot deep large container seven foot diameter with the top one foot the soil medium, it is more like large container gardening than a traditional raised bed.
Our previous raised bed was an extra 18 inches of soil on the ground contained by a wooden structure and was easy to treat just like the in-ground garden.
This is the year for a soil analysis so the raised bed will have a test done for this space as well as the regular garden. Replacing nutrients will be a major concern for the raised bed garden. It originally was 25% garden soil, 25% compost and 50% soilless mix with time release fertilizer. The past two years, we have topped off the raised beds with compost and more soilless mix and extra 10-10-10 fertilizer.
So, I agree there are differences in how to treat raised beds but the same good practices need to be taken to keep them both productive.
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Post by september on Aug 30, 2020 9:46:42 GMT -5
Remember that one reason to go to raised beds is a bit more ease in weeding. Yes, you do still get weed seeds floating in, and grasses sneaking in under the sides, but you can either mow or hard mulch around the beds so the area you need to weed is smaller. Of course you can do that in a flat garden too. There are times that I've thought it would be just easier to till it all in the fall or spring, but that just puts off the weeds which will come up again. After forking for many years, I bought a Mantis tiller again a couple of years ago, and that speeds things up a lot and is small enough to do the beds.
Growing in a no-till fashion with replenishing compost and thick mulch sounds great and I wish I could, but growing in a cold area, I don't put any mulch on because I want the soil to warm up as fast as possible. If I do mulch some with grass clippings, I wait until July after the ground is very warm. I do use black permeable weed blocker fabric to keep weeds down in some parts, and I got fewer flea beetles on my bok choy where I used black plastic. I get ripe larger tomatoes faster than some folks living south of me, so I know warm ground is part of it this far north.
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Post by paquebot on Aug 30, 2020 12:03:35 GMT -5
Raised bads are only as good as the medium used to fill them. If it's just soil from the surrounding area, you are merely raising the original garden. My first was set over deep soil and then woods soil and sand used as a base. Only compost or horse manure added since. That was over 20 years ago and got better each year.
A second was set over sod with no prep. Being 8'x8' and 8" deep, it was going to take a lot of material to fill it. Bottom layer were the ribs from 7 deer. Then 6 pails of woods soil per day until it was full. Sand added until desired texture obtained. Only compost or manure since. No way would I ever eliminate either.
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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Post by ladymarmalade on Aug 30, 2020 14:59:55 GMT -5
I've really enjoyed reading everyone's thoughts! A few things as I'm musing this change. Weeding is a big one and one of the reasons I've always been pro-raised beds. Both brownrexx and september mentioned this. My challenge in this area is my neighbors. They have a fenced in garden space that butts up to mine (with about 18 inches inbetween our garden fences). You'd think this would make us great neighbors with something fun and fruitful in common. Oh, SO not the case here. Their garden hasn't been tended in at least six years according to the other neighbors. And it's 150% a giant weed patch. Burdock, thistle, nettle, lambs quarters and so many other extremely seedy noxious weeds. I received an apology once for their weeds when their drunk adult son was out weed whacking around the garden. He then proceeded to weed whack MY white mulberry tree. (But won't whack the weeds IN the garden.) They won't take care of the weeds because somewhere in there is asparagus and maybe other good things. And, they are alcoholics, they actually don't care. I keep hoping they'll decide to list their house and move. But until then, it's weed city, and all their seeds blow right over into my garden. So, whether my garden is up or down, there will be weeds galore and no amount of me picking at them is making a dent. The raised beds have been filled with garden soil and/or compost from a few different local companies. None of them have proven that they have good soil, and I've amended each year with various manures, pro-mix and compost. This fall we'll finally have our own compost to add to the garden as it's been cooking away nicely, and we also plan to till in a bunch of our fall leaves this year. This year prior to planting I added mushroom compost and cow manure to the in-ground garden space. Not a lot, but some. If you go way back in time to before this house was built in the mid 70's, this space was actually a farm field that has a watershed running through it. (Since then, it's been lawn and mature trees.) The creek connects to a major lake in the area, but mostly it is not running unless it's been raining. As far as we know, flooding has never been a concern even though we're technically waterfront property. The creek gets stagnant at times of the year, but in a time of need I absolutely could haul water from it for garden purposes. DH has been working on refinishing our basement and had to do some plumbing in the bathroom down there. He discovered that the ground water level is just inches away from our foundation- even when it's been dry, dry, dry outside for weeks. It probably wouldn't take much for him to actually be able to dig a well out by the garden if it were legal to do so. That moisture in the ground is one reason I'm considering ditching the raised beds. When I think about it, I just really love the French potager style of gardening. The aesthetics of raised beds and carefully laid paths is so appealing to me! While I'm thinking about in-ground gardening I'm definitely not thinking about traditional rows, but I'm thinking more like blocks, where there are paths inbetween All The Things, but the plants are allowed to spread their roots in the ground where they can reach for that water down below. I have several books and issues of Mother Earth News full of layout ideas for the garden, and during the off season this year I might see if I can cobble together some kind of fusion idea of the two.
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Post by brownrexx on Aug 30, 2020 16:52:07 GMT -5
ladymarmalade , I love the look of blocks and circles of vegetables in a garden. I visited Rodale's organic gardens a few years ago and they called these raised beds but they were more like mounds of soil with no wood sides. I thought that it was beautiful. Here's a sample but of course they have lots of space. Rodale by Brownrexx, on Flickr Rodale by Brownrexx, on Flickr Rodale by Brownrexx, on Flickr
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ponyexpress
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Post by ponyexpress on Aug 31, 2020 7:31:06 GMT -5
So, whether my garden is up or down, there will be weeds galore and no amount of me picking at them is making a dent. I have a bunch of raised beds that I filled with leaf compost. In my case, I had to go with raised beds because I'm planting on top of my septic leach field. I also have a raised bed in my community garden plot that I use for carrots/parsnips. Regarding weeds, I don't have a lot of weeds in my beds because I put a heavy layer (3"?) of hay/straw in my beds. It works pretty well. I try to use it for all of my beds.
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tbird
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Post by tbird on Aug 31, 2020 12:22:40 GMT -5
ladymarmalade, I do worry neighbors think the same of me! I have burdock and lambs quarters but like to eat both. This year there is hardly any lambs quarters at all, and now that i know when to dig the burdock for eating - that is also on the way out comparatively speaking. I do let the 1-2 lambs quarters go to seed each year, but I think there is enough burdock seeds on the place to keep me for a while, so I do try to eliminate any seeding there.
I also have this one garden bed that was the MOST expensive I ever filled, buying a square yard of "garden soil" from a very reputable garden center. After a few rains, it became solid clay. I was dutifully amending it for years and the last time I worked it over, I dug it up and put a lot of branches in there deep, plus compose and egg shells for the worms, kept it well mulched when in use and covered in fall leaves each year. Then I got sidetracked from gardening for several years. It got mostly weedy, with a few intentional plants.
Since nothing was in there much, I selected it for the fall garden this year. Weeded it and found it was pretty unchanged. Huge chunks of dried clay I wondered if it was concrete trying to break it up with my shovel, found many of those small branches and lots of the egg shells just still buried. Not a worm to be seen. Just dry and brick like.
It just kills me I paid money for this! It was a splurge over filling with cheap topsoil bags and amending over the next few years. My native soil - which is clay - and why I was buying - is better than this. After like 10 years. Crazy!
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tbird
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Post by tbird on Aug 31, 2020 12:32:33 GMT -5
just to note: for the fall garden, I worked in 3-4 huge snowshovels of 1 year leaves, a 2 cubic foot bag of happy frog soil, and added some bat guano and earthworm casting.
for the 6-12" deep, I mixed the bed soil with the leaves, then from 3-6" deep added the ferts and happy frog and mixed it with the previous mix, then the last 3" was just the happy frog.
But I've done this before, and all of that - all those leaves, and the added soil, just melts away within the year and it's just hard clay again. Which - fine for 2-3 years, but after 6-7 you kind of have to wonder when the tide will turn!
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stone
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Post by stone on Aug 31, 2020 14:27:55 GMT -5
Burdock, thistle, nettle, lambs quarters I have burdock and lambs quarters but like to eat both. Time to get a book on edibles! Kinda shocking to read about how horrible the neighbor is for allowing all these good munchies to grow! I had raised beds when I was gardening in clay. Here in the sandhills? I think not. Nice pictures of the Rodale gardens... Must be nice to have all those chips AND... the space to waste on pathways... I may start with wide paths... but the vegetation moves ever closer to completely obscuring any walking area at all... I'd rather have the food... No one else really needs to walk through my garden anyway... While I'm thinking about in-ground gardening I'm definitely not thinking about traditional rows, but I'm thinking more like blocks, where there are paths inbetween All The Things, but the plants are allowed to spread their roots in the ground where they can reach for that water down below. Sounds similar to how I garden...
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Post by ladymarmalade on Aug 31, 2020 16:36:35 GMT -5
Burdock, thistle, nettle, lambs quarters I have burdock and lambs quarters but like to eat both. Time to get a book on edibles! Kinda shocking to read about how horrible the neighbor is for allowing all these good munchies to grow! Well, it doesn't help that I am carry-an-epipen-allergic to nettle in all its forms, and I will never, ever, eat burdock again. Holy digestive pyrotechnics batman. I let sorrel live, as well as clover and plaintain. Those are beneficial to me for many reasons, but mostly it's because I can touch them and not have the threat of death looming over me. To be fair, if my neighbor were cultivating wild edibles and actually utilizing them, I would roll my eyes but carry on. This is definitely not that. Also, if they were using them, there would not be a seed explosion blowing over into my garden.
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Post by ladymarmalade on Aug 31, 2020 16:43:07 GMT -5
tbird, definitely sounds like we get our good quality garden soil from the same place. Looks so nice and lush at first, but it didn't take long for it to show it's true colors- sand and clay and a whole new assortment of weeds for the yard. I've decided for sure that my herb gardens will stay raised- but they're going to be refilled with Happy Frog next year. That should make my herb plants super happy and healthy. brownrexx, thanks so much for finding and sharing those photos! I definitely don't have the space for that kind of space between right now, but it's for sure something to think on! DH keeps saying that the more yard we turn into garden, the less he has to mow. Maybe I should see if he means what he says?
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tbird
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Post by tbird on Sept 1, 2020 8:25:09 GMT -5
ladymarmalade, I remember when the garden center mixed it, it was 1/3 top soil, 1/3 compost, and 1/3 something else, rotted wood or leaves? I can't recall. They used a bulldozer to pull it from 3 huge piles, mixed it up, and loaded into the back of a rental truck. It did look good at first. Just looked them up - the 3rd was pine fines. How that could go so wrong so quickly - is really beyond me. They do have a location in whitewater, wi? But - perhaps just the same supplier. My lesson learned was to start with what I got and add what I know. and not a big haul of anything, because - quality can vary.
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Post by bestofour on Sept 1, 2020 10:07:09 GMT -5
[quote author=" ponyexpress" Regarding weeds, I don't have a lot of weeds in my beds because I put a heavy layer (3"?) of hay/straw in my beds. It works pretty well. I try to use it for all of my beds. [/quote] Interesting because this is the first year I put straw in my raised beds and I've had the worst weedy situation than I've ever had. I was thinking to myself the other day that I'll never do that again. tbird, as far as lambsquarter, I had a bunch show up in one of my raised beds and found a YouTube where a man was saying that if you have lambsquarter in your garden it means you have great soil composition. I tasted it but didn't care for it so I pulled it up. ladymarmalade, so what's your decision? Raised beds? Inground? Both?
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Post by september on Sept 1, 2020 10:17:46 GMT -5
This made me chuckle, in my yard, lambsquarter will grow anywhere, lots of it in the very poor sand in back or the hard clay base in the front garden. I know for a fact that I don't have great soil composition.
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tbird
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Post by tbird on Sept 1, 2020 14:24:47 GMT -5
This made me chuckle, in my yard, lambsquarter will grow anywhere, lots of it in the very poor sand in back or the hard clay base in the front garden. I know for a fact that I don't have great soil composition. yes - that youtuber is just - idk, not knowledgable? As an urban dweller, I can tell you I've seen many an abandoned construction site with a field of lambquarters popping up through gravel and concrete cracks. I'd say it would grow anywhere. bestofourwhat did you do with the lambquarters? should only harvest the new growing tips, maybe 4-6 leaves down when not seeding up. wash and saute like spinach. But if you don't like spinach, then I'd understand. I'd say lambsquarters was milder and could appeal to a larger audience than spinach... I think of it like tree spinach. I have a pack of the magenta spreen seeds - the red hearted lambquarters. going to plant the whole thing 2021 and hope it naturalizes. Might try winter sowing. This is my second pack, first time got nothing. I can't even grow weeds?? what's up with that.
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stone
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Post by stone on Sept 3, 2020 12:59:34 GMT -5
Time to get a book on edibles! Kinda shocking to read about how horrible the neighbor is for allowing all these good munchies to grow! Well, it doesn't help that I am carry-an-epipen-allergic to nettle in all its forms, and I will never, ever, eat burdock again. Holy digestive pyrotechnics batman. I let sorrel live, as well as clover and plaintain. Those are beneficial to me for many reasons, but mostly it's because I can touch them and not have the threat of death looming over me. To be fair, if my neighbor were cultivating wild edibles and actually utilizing them, I would roll my eyes but carry on. This is definitely not that. Also, if they were using them, there would not be a seed explosion blowing over into my garden. Sorry to hear about your alergies... When I cooked up stinging nettle last winter, it seemed like the best thing I'd ever tasted. Re people pulling out the lambsquarter because they didn't like it? Shocking! I have to grow lambsquarter inside the deer fence, because the deer eat it down to the ground. Even when I don't eat it, the chickens are thrilled when I pull some for them! They eat the leaves, and when it has mature seeds, they are even more thrilled. I try to leave some lambsquarter standing through the winter because the songbirds like the seed too. I've even picked the seed for my table... I try to bring the chickens fresh greens daily... they appreciate the effort, and the eggs are better... as is the occasional rooster. If you were pulling plants for your yardbirds, I bet your whole attitude would change about those plants! Really difficult to garden and not have chickens... DH keeps saying that the more yard we turn into garden, the less he has to mow. Maybe I should see if he means what he says? If you are wasting valuable garden space on turf... Anything is better than turf...
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stone
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Post by stone on Sept 3, 2020 13:13:01 GMT -5
I have a pack of the magenta spreen seeds - the red hearted lambquarters. going to plant the whole thing 2021 and hope it naturalizes. Might try winter sowing. This is my second pack, first time got nothing. I can't even grow weeds?? what's up with that. Are you in florida? Magenta Spreen likes good garden soil... just like chenopodium album. If you already have the usual lambsquarter, the red tipped variety should grow for you... Maybe try waiting until you see lambsquarter seedlings before planting the magenta spreen? For those I don't know - I am in Chicago, on a somewhat large for the city lot Ok, Not Florida... Maybe plant the magenta Spreen in March or April... At the same time as you sow lettuce.
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Post by ladymarmalade on Sept 3, 2020 15:12:49 GMT -5
Lol, stone, chickens are definitely part of my plans for the future, I'm just not quite ready for them yet.
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stone
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Post by stone on Sept 5, 2020 8:29:07 GMT -5
Hmmm... In Wisconsin You'll need a proper chicken house. Down here, pen with a roof on one end is plenty... of course, keeping the varmints out requires a bit of extra work... Last year, a raccoon got several of my birds before I finally trapped it... this summer, I had a chicken hawk fly through the bird netting and kill one of my best pullets... poor hawk... really hated doing him...
I'd totally suggest getting biddies with the Spring... Build a chicken tractor and let them help with the garden beds...
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Post by brownrexx on Sept 5, 2020 8:43:32 GMT -5
stone, I am appalled that you felt that you had to kill a hawk. Not only it it totally illegal under the Migratory Bird Treaty Act to kill a raptor it is obviously your own fault if he was able to get through bird netting and kill a chicken. My coop's outdoor run is covered with real wire not some flimsy bird netting which will obviously not stop a hawk. I feel very strongly about this. It is our responsibility to protect our flock from predators. They are just doing what come naturally and trying to eat. If you can not keep chickens without illegally killing raptors then you should not keep chickens.
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dirtguy50
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Post by dirtguy50 on Sept 5, 2020 20:53:24 GMT -5
I totally agree with brownrexx.
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Post by bestofour on Sept 12, 2020 21:27:47 GMT -5
ladymarmalade, have you come to a final decision about your garden?
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Post by ladymarmalade on Sept 13, 2020 8:14:51 GMT -5
ladymarmalade, have you come to a final decision about your garden? Nope! At least not fully. The last time DH was out there with me, I pointed out that I had two beds that were currently sitting empty. They are right next to each other on one end of the garden, and one of the beds has some structural issues that DH has mentioned wanting to fix. I suggested to him that if he had a day that he wanted to spend some time outside in the garden, he could feel free to pull up the landscape fabric between those beds and then remove the boards from the beds to spread out the soil and get it ready for some tilling and amending. So I guess I've sort of decided that for this next year I'll leave some raised beds and start dismantling some raised beds and see how it goes. We've had crummy weather all week and I haven't been out there hardly at all. Today looks to be promising, so after church I'll be picking tomatoes and doing some more canning.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2020 19:49:09 GMT -5
So MANY opinions!!!! In Ok I grew lambs quarter and liked it, but it is invasive and became a nuisance. So far none here in this acid soi, scratch that, acid rock. I've never tried burdock, but my good buddy would pick wild mushrooms out of his pasture WHICH I WILL NOT DO because I cannot tell poison from candy. On the chickens, I love 'em, but you really have to have good fences for them. They will learn to fly over a garden fence, and they cannot do you a lot of good if confined to a small pen---mine had the run of the place so long as they stayed out of the garden and off the porch. I did have a good chicken house, even mouse-proof with electric lights and water heater.
On predators---I kill anything that tries to eat my groceries. That means all the four legged varmints, and any winged predators caught in the act. I have killed a box load of coons and possum since coming here, a couple of foxes, some cats and skunks, some squirrels, but no birds. I once tried to kick a hawk to death while he was trying to kill one of my young roosters---he turned loose and fled while I flopped in the dirt. Coons, possum, skunk, stray dog, the wandering cat, bobcat, coyote, several kinds of snakes, even rabbits---every one of those is an enemy of people who try to grow food for themselves. (PS; The rooster survived to become chicken soup a couple of months later.)
If the dog that killed my goose shows up again he will have a hole in his carcass when he gets to dog hell.
My good old Indian neighbor put leg hold traps on tall poles next to his chicken house to trap owls trying to kill his game hens. They worked. He gut shot coyotes because center mass was an easier target than a kill zone shot, and since there are no ER's in coyote land the effect was the same.
Never criticize people who are growing their own food. They may need that food.
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Post by brownrexx on Dec 8, 2020 22:10:11 GMT -5
There are many non lethal ways to protect gardens or chickens from predators. A dog is a domesticated animal is a different situation. It should it not be running loose but trying to maim or kill federally protected species such as hawks and owls is absolutely appalling.
Talking about gut shooting a coyote so that it can crawl away and suffer a slow death just makes me sick and it certainly does not belong in a gardening forum.
I have blocked any future posts from @oxankle2 , so that I do not need to read this type of thing and be upset.
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Post by paquebot on Dec 8, 2020 23:09:19 GMT -5
Actually, best way to stop a coyote is to drop an anvil on his head. Always worked for the roadrunner!
Martin
The truth is more important than the facts.
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